The Illusion Of Control

In this podcast Gangaji and Producer Hillary Larson look at the role control plays in our day to day lives. It can show up in all sorts of ways. Control might ultimately be an attempt to fend off our deepest fears. It can interfere with relationships, and it can also be exhausting. Some people are self-described “control freaks.” For others, control can show up in more subtle ways. Fessing up to our control issues is a pretty tender thing, but when the source of it is finally met, the possibilities are endless.

"What is here is bigger than any notion we have of control. What is here is life." ~Gangaji

Transcript

Control can be a good thing,

But that's not what we're going to talk about this month.

Gangaji and I are going to delve into control as a survival strategy,

Kind of the everyday garden variety.

Now I know there's a broad spectrum of control freakness,

If I can call it that,

Maybe in all of us,

Certainly depending on the day.

Maybe that shows up as saying something in a conversation,

Not saying something,

Sending an email,

Not sending an email,

Needing things to be just a certain way in order to be happy.

At the end of the day,

The willingness to just let go of control and say yes to what is here,

And it doesn't even mean we have to like it,

Which is the good part,

Is so freeing.

The welcome is the respect in your heart for what is here,

And in that you are humbled,

Because what is here is bigger than any notion that we could have of control.

And that's life as the guru is here,

And that's our teacher.

Our control strategies can be pretty tender things to fess up to,

But when control is finally met for what it is,

And that's pretty tender too,

Then the possibilities are endless.

I'm Hillary Larson,

And this is a conversation with Gongaji.

I think this conversation between you and I this time,

In a certain way,

Feels like a bit of a reset for me.

We did a show on trauma that was recently released,

And it stirred up something really deep in me,

And it was shocking,

And I wasn't prepared for it.

And the truth of the matter is that when we finished and you went your way and I went my way,

I was seriously considering not airing that,

Because it was so vulnerable and so raw.

And I was contemplating writing you a note,

And then before I got around to it,

I tuned into the With Gongaji webcast,

And the first thing you said was,

Oh wow,

I can't wait for everybody to hear this interview.

So I sat in my car and kind of laughed at myself that I had that plan.

But the reason why I felt like I wanted to do a reset with you and how it fits so completely with this topic that I'll tell you about in a second is that it seems like when we first started this radio show,

In all honesty,

For me,

It was an interview,

Because I had all my questions lined up and I had an idea of which way we were going to go.

And then as time went on,

I felt like it turned into more of a conversation,

Which was beautiful,

Because then I could actually sit and really listen to you instead of thinking of my agenda.

And recently,

It felt like it's actually dropped into an inquiry.

And to be honest with you,

People tell me all the time how much they appreciate my vulnerability,

But the truth is that that's vulnerability by choice,

And true inquiry is choiceless.

It just happens.

So I wanted to say all that as an introduction to this show I would like to do on control.

Because it feels,

As I look back on all the conversations we've had,

It feels exhausting to me to have been working that hard to not kind of be in the eye of the hurricane,

So to speak.

And of course,

To yourself and of course to other people,

Whoever is listening.

But that seems to me the real progression of a true spiritual life is that we get into it for various reasons,

But they're pretty superficial.

But that's okay,

Because that gets us into it.

And peaks our curiosity or imagination and we get into it egotistically.

But that's okay,

It gets us in the door.

And then when the push comes,

What is the response?

And I did love that conversation we were having and your willingness on air to inquire,

Because that's the point of our whole meeting,

Is that it becomes absolutely relevant to you,

You who is,

Whoever is listening and whoever is speaking.

That it's not just another abstraction,

We have plenty of interesting radio shows and videos and teachers and movies and books and lots of great entertainment and I support all that,

But to really be willing to be pushed by unseen forces into a true inquiry and to air it.

Because as you know it supports everybody and that's,

It's perfect.

It's perfect.

We could have gone on for years without that ever happening.

I mean that's the way many people spend their whole spiritual search or spiritual in quotes lives staying safe and control of course is about staying safe.

It's so much about staying safe and to me I really wanted to bring that into this conversation because it was such a beautiful example of how much work it takes to stay safe,

How,

You know the strategy,

Even if I wasn't fully aware of the strategy of like,

Oh you know what,

I'll have this nice intellectual safe conversation so I never actually have inquiry pointed towards me.

Yeah,

Yeah because we are made to want to be safe and that's fine.

It's just that there's something else calling and it called to you in that moment out of the blue somehow a trigger,

A push or a word or a memory,

Whatever and you didn't run away from it and you didn't fight it and you didn't cover it and those are our usual responses to perceive threats.

Threats that aren't really threats to our true survival but are perceived that way somehow subconsciously.

There's just one more thing I want to add to that whole strategy because you and I have talked about this before.

A year ago I was talking to you about maybe it would be a good idea to have other hosts rotate with me and part of that was because I know other people have incredible questions to ask.

I certainly have not cornered the market on asking you questions but I can also see it was a way of getting out of the line of fire before it happened.

Yeah I was on the cusp of a deepening of the conversation.

It was like in any relationship there's a point where it goes beyond control and safety and there's something that is really the relationship that starts to show up rather than the people involved and the questions and their responses is something bigger and that's what we're looking for.

I loved what you just said because with intimacy there is like a requirement to not be in control.

That's right and there's a requirement when you're not in control that you recognize the whole relationship can be lost and that's really what we're trying to do in general when we are in control is to keep things the way they are because at least we know how they are and that is at least relatively safe.

So when those boundaries are pushed there's a reaction in the body mind that's normal and then there's choice of how you actually respond to that reaction.

Do you get busy or do you open?

You opened and it was a beautiful true moment.

And it lives forever it's in the airwaves right?

Well see that's the thing if it would have been just you and me it would have been like well that's okay.

Because it's safe won't get out of this room.

Yeah and you know I'm glad we're actually talking about this a little bit more because I think it's relevant to whatever it is whoever is listening to this right now whatever your situation is it's not necessarily being on the air having a conversation with you but it's the layers of fear for me of like what are people going to think of me now?

Yeah well of that we never have any control and the more that we can be reminded of that the more choice we have to surrender the idea of control or the idealism of control.

Well thanks for letting me do that in front of thousands of people.

My joy.

We were talking about intimacy I was going to hold this question until a little bit later but since you brought that up I or maybe I brought that up I can't remember.

I wanted to ask a question from Lorna.

She says Dear Gongaji I am in a love relationship that has taught me so much about myself.

It's been the most loving and deeply compassionate and connected love I've known yet I'm easily worried that I'm going to do something to mess it up much more so than any relationship I've ever been in and this appears to bring out these not so subtle tactics and attempts to control her it's painful to me.

As aware as I am I see the same pattern come up over and over again it's both humbling and frustrating like I'm somewhat sane in the area of relationships and then so suddenly I'm not.

Is there any way to permanently get off of that hamster wheel?

Well it's to me the answer is to be willing to be humbled deeper and deeper see that even the desire to get off that hamster wheel is a desire to have this not be the way it is and that's a prayer or desire that is a control and I understand that and I just want to say again there's nothing wrong with that but here it is very fertile because this is something that is arising not from known sources it's a reaction and if you have the space within yourself to actually feel whatever you're feeling and to share it with your partner if it's appropriate but to experience it without an agenda for the outcome I mean that's one of our themes on this these conversations the willingness to give up the agenda then this relationship itself is also at risk just like opinions of other people are at risk and that's what gives a relationship its life because that's truth everything is at risk everything can disappear it will disappear anything that was not always here is subject and definitely will disappear at some time so you know in the flush of new love and the excitement of real connection of course we want to keep it but that desire for keeping it even though it's not keeping away the demons that are appearing it is keeping away a deeper surrender and a trust it's really trusting that if the relationship can't handle this then the relationship won't last if I can't handle this humbling by these old things showing up then then I'm being untrue to myself and I'm not suggesting acting out anything or saying anything but the willingness to experience it and sounds like it's fear here primarily fear of losing already already setting up the loss from the fear of losing just lose right now and and then you're fighting that so when I listen to your answer to that question I think about the whole nature of control and let's just say is to escape death but in our everyday lives on the surface it's to avoid an emotion we don't want to feel and the emotion in itself is not dangerous it's what we tell ourselves about the emotion but when I think of extreme forms of that I think of anybody out there who's ever had a panic attack it's the most overwhelming death-like feeling and then the thought comes in is I hope that never happens again or I hope I'm not in a an environment where it's going to happen and then I'll look foolish or I hope I don't go crazy whatever it is then has to happen to control that happening again and life can get very small that way but it doesn't have to be a panic attack it could be a heartbreak you know it could be losing a job of like never going to have that happen again so I'm going to but how is that not all death fear of death you go through a panic attack and then your fear is that it comes it's a fear you're going to die you're going to fall apart again you're going to lose it again you you are when I say it's all about death I'm not saying it's all about on your deathbed taking your last breath although that is wrapped inside it but I mean just some people can't go to sleep at night because they're fear of the death of the day or fear of the death of their insights even when they're so blissful they can't go to sleep because of fear of the loss of bliss but all of those examples you just gave are just versions of death fear of death so we tend to make death a kind of static image but death is on our shoulder all the time a day dies every night a life dies or acquisitions that we have in this moment are subject to death relationships die and self-concepts die are subject to total shattering when we are humbled so that's what I and that's what control is based on somehow keeping that in measurable enough doses so that you can feel like you're getting deeper or stronger or more intelligent or even facing death or just opening to the the way that we are wired as animals which is to be safe to know what's going to happen to know how it's going to happen and that's all rightfully so we are wired correctly that way to avoid death there's nothing wrong with that and in spiritual conversations often it gets made the thing that stops you from your spiritual evolution is your fear of death or your fear of loss or fear of the relationship souring or fear of another panic attack but that's not what I'm saying at all it's that it recognizes that's natural that you don't have to fight that you can actually open to it as you can open to the bigger true death of the whole organism the whole mind body and history of this mind body that's what makes inquiry alive and not just something okay yeah all right okay I'll deal with my fear of death that's right I know I'm going to die I know my parents have died I've I've experienced death I know that but then I don't also don't want this to happen and this to happen but if you dig into those it's the same fear same control the same kind of agenda for continuance that is so interesting to me because I've had conversations with people that say that they're not afraid of death but if you ask them if if they made a complete fool out of themselves in front of 300 people if that would affect them you know it's like whatever your version of death is exactly and it's infinite versions yeah wow that's so good I was thinking about the title of this conversation this time was the illusion of control seems obvious but I also was thinking about calling it circling the pool because there's a way of control manifesting and just kind of circling around something in some way instead of like just you know jumping right in waiting for exhaustion exactly so yeah deferring death like five years of having conversations with you yeah well you know it's just dealing with what's here it's the way we are made as animals and we we need to remember that because that in itself is humbling that we have these reactions and they are hardwired into us and there's nothing wrong with them there are many teachings that can support you in changing your reactions or talk talking yourself down from particular reactions that's great but that's not what this is this is just absolute opening this may not be your thing and obviously it is mine to a certain degree different kind of death is do you not have a fear of what people think of you well I certainly have had and I would certainly want everybody to think I'm great and lovable and intelligent but you know very quickly especially as as a public person I recognize many many people do not think well of me do not think I'm lovable or intelligent or any of those things and that's beyond my control beyond my control and to recognize that I mean that's just really intelligent I mean I could say the same to you as you put yourself forth on these conversations do you really not care if anybody thinks ill of you in these conversations or are you you would prefer it a certain way but you're still willing to have the conversation that's the point it's not that any of my feelings have to change but I'm not willing to live enslaved to my caring about what people might think about me okay I think I said this to you in a conversation that actually we didn't we didn't release just because we we had something else going on and and I was talking about your conversation with Janine Roth and that was a special we did about a year and a half ago and as I was sitting there observing the two of you you were absolutely to me two people that were completely free and and just being yourselves not trying to be anybody not trying to be funny not trying to be smart about bodies just two people that were just free and that was so refreshing for me to see that so what made us free what did you see there wasn't a self-monitoring happening that's right that's right yeah that's right that was it so I most of my life I had the self-monitoring thing going on and an exhaustion that goes with that because and a selecting for who doesn't think I'm wonderful and smart and funny and how can I and that's partly what got me to Papaji I because I had incorporated certain teachings Buddhist teachings and Christian teachings and new age teachings into that egoic desire to be universally loved and appreciated and live forever in the hearts and minds of all beings and and that I couldn't get find my way out of that I mean I could see that and I knew it was a fixation and I knew that it caused suffering I knew it was my enslavement but it really it took my teacher telling me to stop trying to do anything with it fulfill it or deny it or fight it or dramatize it or hide from it or just stop and then it had no power it was a demon that had no real power did the power of that ever come back again I don't know exactly what you mean I mean it's as I just said I would prefer everybody find me totally delightful all the time but I'm I guess I'm not willing to sell out for that preference yeah you know except maybe socially if I'm I say hello you know I go through the social niceties but in a real conversation or a real meeting or in a real day all day it's what is it worth and it doesn't work anyway it doesn't it's not like you can get ultimate control it does not work so we're not talking about a strategy that actually works we're talking about a strategy that it causes unnecessary suffering in you and most likely other people too I think that when I look at awakening I would say I experience awakening by degree and I the awareness of the exhaustion of monitoring to me is there comes an exhaustion just like any addiction of just like I can't put any more energy into this yeah measurement I remember Papaji saying once you got to throw away your measurement stick what are you measuring awakening awakening can be measured you know how big is it and how big are you the measure so it's already awakening is your object then and you're going to measure it and it's bigger today or it's smaller today and you feel good if it's bigger bad if it's yeah it's bigger bad if it's yeah it's uh suffering the thing about control is that it's easy to you know when you're feeling chill and like oh I can just let things be the way they are but then on days where it's like oh I woke up this morning my nervous is a little like wired or I got some bad news and then instantly the pathology comes into play and it's not as easy to say oh I'll let go of that so it's not even about saying oh I'll let go of that I'm not suggesting that although I do think deep breathing is very useful it's about recognizing it's there and recognizing there's a conversation that's going on but deeper than that conversation there's an emotion there's a just the way your body is made to respond to certain stimuli and and with conversational thinking and and an emotion and you can simply take 30 seconds to open to that emotion without trying to fix it or make it go away just out of respect for what's appearing but I'm not ever suggesting that you have a particular thing you should say to it or that you should get back to what you were feeling like yesterday I mean the real message here is that states of mind come and go emotions come and go bliss comes and goes spaciousness of mind comes and goes but in your willingness for the contraction to be respected as much as the spaciousness or expansion is respected then contraction is not the enemy it's simply another portal deeper into yourself it's not part of the measurement of how good you are today or since your nervous system is is calm today that's good a plus and if it's a mess tomorrow bad failing that's the enslavement and that's a cultural enslavement that's something you've learned and gets reinforced in many spiritual and religious cultures as well I remember a long time ago reading something from a Sufi text and it it talked about welcoming the fire as much as welcoming the garden yes fire yeah and the welcome doesn't mean oh I'm so happy to see you it may but the welcome is is the respect in your heart for what is here and in that you are humbled because what is here is bigger than any any notion that we could have of control and that's life as the guru is here and that's our teacher and so we always have to open to that that's the surrender is what all of our conversations finally get back to you your clarification on welcoming and willingness I think you mentioned it the last show we did as well that was so huge because I think the idea of willingness means you have to be in that like you have to love what's here and in that clarification that no you don't if you're not you're not it's really in this millisecond what are you experiencing not what you should be what you can get to if you deep breathe even though I recommend deep breathing for everyone especially when your nervous system is frayed it actually works to support that but for you in the midst of a deep breath in the midst of a shallow breath to recognize you are the consciousness that is the true substance of life I wanted to talk to you in the time we have left I want to get a couple people's comments in here I want to get a comment in here from Jordan he's on the Gongji radio team now glad to have him he says the serenity prayer sums it up for me God grant me the courage to change the things I can the serenity to accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference I've been especially cracked open lately in giving myself to this and realizing more deeply I am love and this is blessedly out of control from this love I am spontaneously springs all that is needed even if it doesn't always look pretty and as far as strategies go Karen had this to say that she got from you she said the greatest gift I have been given was in understanding towards away and against as the signposts of suffering when no movement is made no control is initiated then there is no problem I am home I'm free perhaps with preferences but not controlling and not controlled by unconscious reactions I am free to respond from love as love oh I'm really happy to hear that yeah because she just listed the the primary strategies of mind the movements of mind the movements of mind and they are there for survival for control but when they become our habitual way of meeting life of course we lose the identity of ourselves as love because we're all involved in the strategies and it's endless how many times a day do you have to move against something or run away from something or dramatize something to get you away or to get things to to line up the way you would like them to to stop that this immediate nectar of being is obvious it doesn't get generated from that it's obviously here it's your natural state so on the next episode of a conversation with gongaji we'll be talking about the subject of ethics the question is or one of them does the desire to do the right thing or to be good maybe have anything when it comes right down to it with awakening that's next month and don't forget you can sign up for gongaji's live monthly webcast by going to the website gongaji.

Org you can also get this show every month automatically by subscribing to a conversation with gongaji on itunes you can also give us a rating on itunes to help more people find this podcast i'm hillary larson we'll see you next month everybody take care until then

Reviews

Helpful insights about the nature of control. I will need to listen to this again to gather more awareness into my habits of “mind control” that lead to suffering and exhaustion. Thank you.

Let go of the illusion of control - thank you for this fruitful conversation. So inspiring.

Deeply heartfelt, thought provoking and moving. Thank you!

So inspiring. Thank you for your authenticity. ❤️☀️💜

Beautiful. The choiceless moment to meet what is here now ❤ love you, gangaji! being a student of Mariananda I send all my love! and gratitude to both of you ❤

Perfect timings thank you 🌸🌿

Came on the right moment and taught me a lot...gotta digest it now!

I find Gangaji's way of teaching to be both very freeing and grounding at the same time. I listen to many teachers, but when my mind is going in circles and nothing seems to help, I stop what I'm doing and look up one of her talks. It always helps.

Amazing conversation. I learned so much. Great dynamics between the speakers and I'm now very curious about the previous talk :) Going to hunt it down now. Thank you very much! 🙏

It’s hard to face our fears of losing control. This podcast was a great reminder that it’s ok to face our feelings

How inspiring and Just what I needed today.
I can’t wait to hear more. 🙏🙏🙏💕

Very helpful. Just what I needed!

Loved this and certainly identified with it

Deeply profound. My life’s journey has just changed course🙏🏻

So timely ... loved it ❤️Thankyou both

Gangaji is bliss. 🙏💫🌅More, please.

Amazing. I want more.

Just what I needed today. Lesson is freeing ourselves from the need to control. Open up. Awaken and just be

"You are the consciousness that is the true substance of life." ❤️🙏

Awesome! Thank you for this interview. I really enjoyed it. 😊🙏