Nisargadatta's I Am That Session 29 - Chapter 13 Part 3

Listen to Ektaji talk about Nisargadatta Maharaj's book I Am That. Nisargadatta Maharaj was a teacher who did not propound any ideology or religion, but gently unwrapped the mystery of the self. I Am That preserves his dialogs with the followers who came from around the world seeking guidance in destroying false identities.

Transcript

Welcome to I am THAT,

Chapter 13,

The Supreme,

The Mind and The Body,

Part 3.

This has been a long chapter,

So it has been divided into multiple sessions.

Today we will continue from page 34,

Where we stopped last.

Here the questioner is asking about the Paramaswaroop.

Paramaswaroop,

That is the word used in the Marathi text,

Has been translated here as the supreme,

The primordial awareness.

So,

He is asking that when one moves beyond the witness consciousness level to the primordial awareness,

Is that person conscious?

So,

The question is,

Is the supreme conscious?

In Marathi,

Is the Paramaswaroop conscious?

And read out the Marathi sentence,

Paramaswaroop jaani poornas te kai?

In English,

Paramaswaroop has been translated as supreme.

Is the supreme conscious?

Maharaj says,

Neither conscious nor unconscious.

I am telling you from experience.

So,

Those who have got a glimpse,

Those who have managed to go beyond the body-mind and just remain as the witness,

Soon you come to a point where the I,

The witness,

Also dissolves.

The sense of I am disappears into nothingness.

That's when you got a glimpse of the primordial awareness.

When body-mind and the witness became one and you went beyond,

Even if it was just for a few seconds,

You got a glimpse of the supreme state,

The Paramaswaroop.

If you were there,

You would have recognized it is neither conscious nor unconscious.

This would be your own experience.

Maharaj says,

Neither conscious nor unconscious.

I am telling you from experience.

So,

This questioner seems to be a well-read person.

He is asking about a Mahavakya from the Aitherya Upanishads which is in the Rig Veda.

He is asking Pragyanam Brahma.

What is this Pragya?

The word Pragya means conscious,

Sentience,

Aliveness and Brahma means Brahman.

In simple words,

It means the sense of being alive,

That consciousness that you are experiencing,

The awareness that you are experiencing,

That is Brahman.

So,

He asks the question,

Pragyanam Brahma.

What is this Pragya?

Why is he asking this question?

Because Maharaj says that I am neither conscious nor unconscious as the primordial awareness.

So,

This person who is well-read is in a very mild manner challenging that,

Saying that the Mahavakya is Pragyanam Brahman which means consciousness is Brahman.

How can you say it is?

Not conscious also.

So,

Maharaj says,

Pragya is the unselfconscious knowledge of life itself.

I'll read it out in Marathi first.

Pragya manje swadzaniv rahit ase jeevanachets gyan hoy.

It is the unselfconscious knowledge of life itself.

Again,

Like I told you,

There is no spiritual dictionary,

No spiritual words.

So,

A spiritual teacher to convey,

In order to convey something has to play with words.

So,

The Marathi word is swadzaniv rahit,

Unselfconscious.

To explain that in simple terms means where the primordial awareness,

It's not conscious about itself,

Yet it has the knowledge of life itself.

So,

It is the unselfconscious knowledge of life itself.

Let's take the example of our dream world.

In the night,

When you are sleeping and in the dream state,

You are dreaming of various dream characters in a dream world.

You are the dreamer.

You are directly conscious of the dream characters in your dream world.

In the morning,

When you awaken from this dream,

The dream world vanishes,

The dream characters vanish.

You are now the waker.

The waker is not directly conscious of the dream,

The dream world,

The dream characters,

And yet he is not unconscious.

He has the knowledge of the existence of the dream.

Similarly,

The primordial awareness,

The pure consciousness,

The supreme state is not directly conscious of life,

Yet it is not unconscious.

That is why Maharaj described it as the unselfconscious knowledge of life itself.

Obviously,

The questioner did not get it.

So,

He is now trying to dwell further,

Trying to dive deeper with his own dictionary,

With his own words.

So,

He asks,

Is it vitality,

The energy of life,

Livingness?

So,

Maharaj is asking,

Is it vitality,

Livingness?

So,

Maharaj says,

Energy comes first,

For everything is a form of energy.

Consciousness is most differentiated in the waking state,

Less so in dream state,

Still less in deep sleep state.

Homogeneous in the fourth state.

Beyond is inexpressible,

Monolithic reality,

The abode of Jnana,

Not Jnani,

The abode of Jnana.

So,

Maharaj is explaining that first is energy,

Everything is energy.

It is consciousness itself that is energy.

This energy is differentiated.

It has many different parts.

It is differentiated the most in the waking state,

Then it is less differentiated in the dreaming state,

And it is almost nil,

But not totally gone in the deep sleep state.

And the fourth state is homogeneous because it is the substratum of the first three,

The waking,

Dreaming and deep sleep.

It is homogeneous in the fourth state.

The state beyond,

Turiyatita,

The state beyond,

That is what we are calling the supreme state.

That is what we are calling the Swaroopa state,

The Parama Swaroopa state.

In that,

Beyond is inexpressible.

It cannot be put in words,

Indescribable.

Monolithic means it cannot be divided,

Indivisible.

I cannot explain to you in different parts.

It's indivisible.

It's a monolithic reality.

It is the abode of Jnana.

That is the true meaning of Prajnanam Brahma,

Means it is the abode of Jnana,

But that Jnana does not know itself.

It's not conscious of itself.

So it's unselfconscious.

The questioner still does not get it.

He says,

I have cut my hand.

It healed.

By what power did it heal?

Maharaj says,

It is consciousness.

All is conscious.

I'll read the Marathi because the word in Marathi has changed.

In Marathi he says,

Ti chetana aahe.

Sarva chetana poornaste.

What is the source of consciousness?

Chetane cha ugam konta?

Consciousness itself is the source of everything.

Chetana hi sarvancha ugam aahe.

Consciousness itself is the source of everything.

Here we are talking about pure consciousness.

So then the questioner asks,

Can there be life without consciousness?

Chetane shivay jeevan asu shaktikay?

Maharaj says,

Nahi.

No.

Nor consciousness without life.

So they are one and the same thing.

That is where Maharaj is driving us.

That the witness consciousness and body mind world are not separate.

They arise together and they disappear together.

They arise together and they disappear together.

They are one and the same thing.

So consciousness itself is the source of everything.

And can there be life without consciousness?

No.

Nor can there be consciousness without life.

They are both one.

But in reality only the ultimate is.

The rest is a matter of name and form.

So even witness consciousness comes under name and form.

You have a form.

The sense of I am.

It's a subtle,

Formless kind of form.

But even formlessness,

Form.

It has a kind of a subtle mental form.

It is formless.

It is formless.

The primordial awareness,

The pure consciousness,

The Turiya Theta is indescribable.

I cannot even say it is form or it's formless.

I cannot say it is being.

I cannot say it is not being.

I cannot say it is conscious.

I cannot say it is not conscious.

It is indescribable.

It cannot be reached by words.

As long as you cling to the idea that only what has name and shape exists,

The supreme will appear to you non-existing.

Please highlight this.

This is very,

Very important.

Till the time I continue my old conditioning,

My old habit pattern of trying to experience the consciousness,

Trying to know the consciousness,

Of trying to figuring it out,

To be able to dissect the consciousness.

This is the way our minds are trained in this samsara,

In the world of the body-mind.

Maharaj is warning us that in that world,

This analysis will only take you down.

You cannot experience the supreme because it is not separate from you.

You cannot know it.

Know it.

You cannot perceive it.

And the most favorite example of the Upanishads is,

Can the eyes ever see themselves directly?

Not in a mirror,

Directly.

Can the eyes ever see themselves?

No,

They can never see themselves.

The eyes will see the world because the world is separate.

The eyes will see this body,

But the eyes cannot see themselves.

This is a favorite example of the Upanishads when explaining about primordial awareness or pure consciousness,

That you cannot experience yourself.

You cannot dissect yourself.

You cannot know yourself.

You cannot describe yourself because all this falls under the realm of the mind and the mind cannot go there.

So,

I'll read that line again.

As long as you cling to the idea that only what has name and shape exists,

The supreme will appear to you non-existing.

When you understand that names and shapes are hollow shells without any content whatsoever,

And what is real is nameless and formless,

Pure energy of life and light of consciousness,

You will be at peace,

Immersed in the deep silence of reality.

So,

It is a matter of experiential recognition.

It is a matter of seeing very clearly that in this It is a matter of seeing very clearly that in this dream world,

Everything that is name and form is simply a hollow shell.

It appears like a walking,

Talking body-mind as if it is an individual entity,

But it is nothing but a hollow shell.

There is nobody home.

Even a radio talks,

But break open a radio,

You will not find anybody there.

It's exactly like that.

These body-minds all appear to be walking,

Talking entities,

But they are hollow shells.

All these names and forms are hollow shells.

When this becomes your experiential recognition,

Not intellectual understanding,

Experiential recognition,

Then you grasp the truth that the only reality is no thingness.

The only reality is nobodiness,

Emptiness,

Stillness,

Peace.

When that becomes clear,

Then you will stop searching for shape.

You will stop searching for form.

You will stop trying to know or to experience the consciousness.

You will just simply rest as the pure consciousness.

You will simply rest as the primordial awareness.

You will be immersed in peace,

Immersed in the deep silence of reality.

If time and space are mere illusions and you are beyond,

Please tell me,

What is the weather in New York?

Is it hot or raining there?

The questioner went on a tangent.

He's not quite getting it because he does not have the experiential recognition.

But those of you who have the experiential recognition already know the answer to the question.

So we'll read it.

How can I tell you such things need special training or just traveling to New York?

I may be quite certain that I am beyond time and space and yet unable to locate myself at will at some point of time and space.

He's very clear that I am beyond time and space.

That does not mean that I can locate myself here not mean that I can locate myself here in time and space or there in time and space.

No,

I'm just beyond.

Time space doesn't interest me.

That's how I got beyond.

If I was always stuck in time and space,

If I was very interested in time and space,

I would never be able to go beyond.

I have gone beyond because I don't have any more interest in time and space.

It is simply the source of suffering and this is very clear to Maharaj.

I am not interested enough.

I see no purpose in undergoing a special yogic training.

I have just heard of New York.

To me,

It is a word.

Why should I know more than the word conveys?

Why should I know more than the word conveys?

Why?

There's only dukkha.

Every atom may be a universe as complex as ours.

Must I know them all?

I can if I train but it's not required.

It is again that which belongs to this material world.

That which belongs to the body-mind world.

Maharaj has gone beyond the body-mind world.

So why would he be interested in any science,

Any training that belongs to the body-mind world,

Anything that belongs to time and space?

He has achieved the highest.

Now nothing less than the highest would do.

So there is no interest.

In putting the question about the weather in New York,

Where did I make the mistake?

Maharaj says the world and the mind are states of being.

The supreme,

Which is in Marathi swaroop,

Is not a state.

It pervades all states but it is not a state of something else.

It is entirely uncaused,

Independent,

Complete in itself,

Beyond time and space,

Mind and matter.

Okay,

Now we are learning that there are states of the being.

So what are the states of the being?

The world is a state of the being.

The mind is the state of the being.

What is the being?

The supreme being itself is not a state.

Is that clear?

The primordial awareness,

This awareness,

This all-pervading infinite awareness is not a state.

It is the reality.

Anything other than this infinite pervading reality anything other than the supreme is a state.

So in this infinite awareness the body,

Mind arises.

That is a state.

The world arises.

That is a state.

What is the meaning of state?

That which comes,

That stays for some time and goes away.

The world dissolves in the night.

In the deep sleep state there is no world.

The body-mind dissolves in the night.

In the deep sleep state there is no body-mind.

So these are states of the being because they appear and disappear within the being.

So the supreme is not a state.

The supreme being,

The primordial awareness is not a state of anything.

It is entirely uncaused.

The primordial awareness simply is.

It's uncaused,

Independent.

It's not dependent on the mind or the body or the world.

It is complete in itself.

The awareness is complete.

Purna.

It is beyond time and space.

Beyond mind and matter.

So now the questioner is very interested in getting to the primordial awareness.

Now that he's heard a lot.

He says,

By what sign do you recognize it?

Bharat says that's the point.

It leaves no traces.

Those who have a glimpse of the primordial awareness understand this so clearly.

It leaves no trace.

It is everywhere.

The awareness is everywhere.

Yet you cannot find a trace.

You cannot find a sign.

There is nothing to recognize it by.

It must be seen directly by giving up all search for signs and approaches.

When all names and all forms have been given up,

The real is with you.

You need not seek it.

Plurality and diversity are the play of the mind only.

Reality is one.

This awareness is there everywhere,

Infinitely pervading.

It is one reality.

It is indivisible.

Though there are many names and forms that appear and disappear here,

These names and forms are diverse.

That awareness is not diverse.

It is not plural.

It is just one reality.

Ekta versus the word anekta.

That's the words used in the book.

For plurality,

He's used the word anekta.

For diversity,

He uses the word vibhinnata.

Anekta and vibhinnata.

He keval manache khed ahe.

Swaroop pat ekamev aste.

Reality is one.

So give up.

Give up all approaches.

Give up all kinds of looking for a sign of the primordial awareness.

There is no sign that you are going to find.

It leaves behind no trace.

When you give up everything,

What you are left with,

That is the real.

The awareness.

The consciousness.

If reality leaves no evidence,

There is no speaking about it.

Maharaj says,

It is.

It cannot be denied.

It is deep and dark.

Mystery beyond mystery.

But it is.

While all merely happens.

The sadhak asks,

If reality leaves no evidence,

There is no speaking about it.

Maharaj says,

It is.

It cannot be denied.

It is deep and dark.

Mystery beyond mystery.

But it is.

While all merely happens.

So you know the difference between ahe and ghadte.

Is and happens.

Primordial awareness is.

Pure consciousness is.

Body-mind-world happens.

Everything else happens.

It is.

That is why you cannot deny it.

Nakarta yet nahi.

You cannot deny it.

So the questioner is not clear yet.

He asks,

Is it the unknown Is it the unknown?

Maharaj says,

It is beyond both the known and the unknown.

But I would rather call it the known than the unknown.

For whenever something is known,

It is the real that is known.

Anything you know.

Anything in this world that you know.

You are still knowing the consciousness only.

The pure consciousness has manifested as the mind,

The body and the world.

So anything that you know,

You are knowing the real only.

You are knowing the consciousness only.

So if you are knowing the consciousness only,

You can't call it completely unknown.

It is known.

That is what Maharaj is saying.

I prefer to call it known.

Though it is not so easily perceivable because it cannot be perceived by the instruments that have been projected by the consciousness.

The body-mind are instruments that are projected by the consciousness.

And now the body-mind try to perceive the consciousness.

They cannot perceive it.

They cannot perceive it.

The pot never found out who the potter was.

The projections can never find out who the consciousness is that projects it.

But they are not themselves different from the consciousness.

So they can just be the consciousness.

You can only be the consciousness.

You can never know the consciousness.

You cannot experience the consciousness because then that would again mean the consciousness becomes the object of my knowing.

I am the subject and consciousness becomes the object of my knowing.

Then I become separate from consciousness which is not possible.

The eyes can never see themselves.

Similarly,

You the pure consciousness can never experience yourself.

You cannot perceive yourself.

You can only be yourself.

The questioner asks,

Is silence an attribute of the real?

Maharaj says that too is of the mind.

All states and conditions are of the mind.

Why?

Because silence also,

What are you saying is silence.

That which is the opposite of noise.

Correct?

So both noise and silence belong to the world which is a projection of consciousness.

The projections of consciousness can never experience or know the consciousness enough to be able to describe it in words.

So trying to describe it as silence,

We are still using a samsaric word for something that is paramarthik.

So he finally comes to his last question.

What is the place of samadhi?

Samadhi che sthaan konte?

Jani vecha upyog na karne hi samadhi.

Tumhi aplya manala door theva,

Tyacha paasun alipta raha.

Tumche sharir keewa man,

Yaa paasun tumhala kahit midvaitse nahin.

Nobody,

No teacher has been so direct in explaining that samadhi belongs to this dream world.

I'll first read it out in English and then we will discuss this further.

What is the place of samadhi?

Not making use of one's consciousness is samadhi.

Highlight please.

Not making use of one's consciousness is samadhi.

You just leave your mind alone.

You want nothing,

Neither from your body nor from your mind.

In this dream world,

This dream character has started assuming that the thoughts,

Feelings,

Sensations and perceptions are mine.

This misunderstanding has led to a lot of suffering.

It feels that the dreamer's thoughts are my thoughts,

Dreamer's feelings are my feelings.

It holds on to thoughts and feelings and says,

Oh I should not have thought like that,

I should have not felt like that.

Why is this happening to me?

Or I am not that kind of a person.

Not only it sees that the thoughts and feelings belong to itself,

He starts seeing that this other dream character,

His also thoughts and feelings are hurting me.

So this whole assumption about I am the doer,

I am the thinker,

I am the experiencer,

All this assumption is the cause for suffering.

Once this is clear that this assumption is the cause for suffering,

Then one learns to drop everything that is related to this dream world.

So what is related to this dream world?

The body is related to the dream world,

The thoughts that are here hovering around,

Floating thoughts that I assume are mine are related to this dream world.

The witness is related to this dream world.

It is just the dreamer that has become aware that it is dreaming.

It is still related to this dream world.

So even if you use a breath technique,

Manipulating the breath,

Rhythmizing the breath,

Trying to breathe in this way and breathe in that way,

You are still stuck to the dream world.

You use sound.

Sound is nothing but perception of the sound in this dream world.

You cannot get a sound which is outside this dream world.

The sound belongs to this dream world.

So any sound,

Any mantra,

Any word,

Any voice,

Any music belongs to this dream world.

You are bound by this dream world.

You use perception of sight.

Bring some candle and you start looking at the light and then close your eyes and now see the image of the light inside.

Blue light,

Yellow light,

Flickering lights,

Big light,

Whatever light.

It is again limited to this dream world.

So all these meditation techniques that will use sight,

Sound,

Smell,

Taste,

Touch will belong to this dream world.

They cannot take you beyond.

Impossible!

So how do I go beyond?

I take the first step as just being the witness consciousness and then let that also drop.

That is the way to go beyond.

So we have learned Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry where we just follow the thought I and then observe it dissolve and once it dissolves into the nothingness then you just hold on to that nothingness.

We have also learned Buddha's techniques where you just see reality as it is.

You're not doing anything.

You're seeing the reality of the body.

Maybe the natural breath is coming in and out or the thoughts are moving.

I am the witness of the thoughts.

I am not the thoughts.

I am not the body.

These thoughts are not self.

This body is not self.

Recognizing this,

Who is recognizing?

The witness consciousness and then even that is not self.

That also drops away.

So these few techniques are there where you use witness consciousness just as a stepping stone as a stepping stone to go beyond.

But you don't use the witness consciousness as the perceiver of sight,

Sound,

Smell,

Taste,

Touch.

The moment I become the perceiver I will lose the opportunity of going beyond because I am again trapped in the body-mind person.

If this is very clear let's see what Maharaj says.

What is samadhi?

Not using the witness consciousness.

This is samadhi.

So I use the witness consciousness only in dhyana or meditation.

It is a stepping stone for me where the witness consciousness now drops.

Not using the witness consciousness where the witness consciousness drops and I get thrown into the nothingness of my own self.

The nobodiness,

The aliveness,

The consciousness,

The stillness,

The supreme reality that which I am.

That is samadhi.

It's very clear not using the witness consciousness.

Because the moment you start using the witness consciousness,

The witness consciousness becomes the perceiver of the breath,

The perceiver of the mantra,

The perceiver of the words of the puja,

The perceiver of the idol,

The perceiver of the incense smell,

The perceiver of prasad,

Whatever it is,

The sweet candy,

The sweet laddus that you have kept in the puja.

The moment you are using the witness consciousness you're making it the perceiver,

The knower,

The doer,

The experiencer.

All these come in after that.

So not using the witness consciousness.

Just be the witness and let it drop.

Not using it.

Letting the witness consciousness drop is samadhi.

I hope this is clear.

Yeah,

I'll read that again.

जानी वेचा उप्योग न करनी ही समाधी। तुम्ही अपल्या मनाला दूर ठेवा। Keep the mind far away.

Literal translation,

Keep the mind far away because anything related to the mind is not samadhi.

Pooja,

Worship is not samadhi.

Rites and rituals,

Not samadhi.

Prayer to a god,

To an idol,

Not samadhi.

Closing your eyes and rhythmizing your breath,

Not samadhi.

Chanting a mantra,

Chanting the name of the god,

Even chanting that I am Brahman,

Still words,

Not samadhi.

Is this very clear?

Wherever you use the witness consciousness so that it becomes the doer,

The experiencer,

That is not samadhi.

Don't use the witness consciousness,

Just be,

Just be,

And let that I drop,

Let the witness consciousness drop.

That is samadhi.

तुम्ही अपल्या मनाला दूर ठेवा। त्याच्या पासुन अलिप्त रहा। अलिप्त literally means be untouched by it,

Then only you are in samadhi.

Untouched by perception of sight,

Perception of sound,

Perception of smell,

Perception of taste,

Perception of touch.

अलिप्त,

Untouched.

त्याच्या पासुन अलिप्त रहा। Be untouched by the mind,

Keep it far away.

तुम्छे शरीर किवा मन या पासुन तुम्हाला काहीच मिडवाएचे नाही। तुम्छे शरीर किवा मन या पासुन तुम्हाला काहीच मिडवाएचे नाही। You have nothing to do with your body and mind.

You have nothing to do with your body and mind.

That is samadhi.

When you let go,

It's a hollow empty shell.

It is not me.

I have got nothing to do with it.

That is samadhi.

You will get nothing from the body or the mind.

Recognize this truth.

Samadhi means just being in your real state,

The primordial awareness that you are.

And how do you get there?

Just be.

Just be.

Not using sight,

Sound,

Smell,

Taste.

Not using sight,

Sound,

Smell,

Taste,

Touch.

Not using the body.

Not using the breath.

Not using anything that falls under the umbrella of the body and the mind.

Not using the witness consciousness.

Not making it the doer of anything.

Just being.

Just be.

You'll notice first you will naturally be the witness consciousness and the witness will drop.

And you will just slip into the nothingness.

The nothingness of your own true being.

So right now,

Right here,

Let us all close our eyes and just be.

Just be.

Samadhi can happen anywhere.

Right here.

Right now.

Not being the doer.

Not being the experiencer.

Letting the witness also drop.

Letting the sense of I am dissolve.

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