I Am That - Session 78 - The Beginningless Begins Forever -1

Listen to Ektaji talk about Nisargadatta Maharaj's book I Am That. Nisargadatta Maharaj was a teacher who did not propound any ideology or religion, but gently unwrapped the mystery of the self. I Am That preserves his dialogs with the followers who came from around the world seeking guidance in destroying false identities.

Transcript

The beginningless begins forever.

Questioner,

The other day I was asking you about the two ways of growth,

Renunciation and enjoyment,

Yoga and bhoga.

The difference is not so great as it looks.

The yogi renounces to enjoy.

The bhogi enjoys to renounce.

The yogi renounces first.

The bhogi enjoys first.

This person thinks it's equal.

What's the difference?

The bhogi goes through pain in life.

He suffers,

Suffers,

Suffers and then he realizes,

Okay,

It's too much.

He takes his time but he also renounces,

No?

So how is he different than the yogi?

Yeah,

Yogi renounces right in the beginning.

Maharaj answers,

So what?

Leave the yogi to his yoga and leave the bhogi to his bhog.

Why are you bothered in all these things?

This person is a very beginner level,

Stuck in intellectual stuff,

Stuck on the dvaitam path.

He's constantly labeling and judging others and,

You know,

Drawing conclusions about the path.

Remember how you were in the beginning?

Very judgmental person.

Yeah,

So Maharaj is saying,

Stop judging,

Quit judging,

Clear?

Questioner,

The way of bhoga seems to me the better one.

The yogi is like a green mango separated from the tree prematurely and kept to ripen in a basket of straw.

Airless and overheated,

It does get ripe but the true flavor and fragrance are lost.

The mango left on the tree grows to full size,

Color and sweetness,

A joy in every way.

Yet,

Somehow,

Yoga gets all the praises and bhoga all the curses.

As I see it,

Bhoga is the better of the two.

He just wants to prove that,

You know,

That the samsara is not so bad and please say yes.

He's literally saying that to Maharaj.

So,

Maharaj says,

Okay,

What makes you say so?

The questioner says,

I watch the yogis and their enormous efforts even when they realize there is something bitter or astringent about it.

They seem to spend much of their time in trances.

Trances,

You know,

They go into the long meditations and trances.

And when they speak,

They merely voice their scriptures.

At their best,

Such jnanis are like flowers,

Perfect but just little flowers,

Shedding their fragrance within a short radius.

So,

You know,

Some paths where there is not much jnan.

So,

He's talking about those in the first line.

He's talking about some other in the next line.

There are some others who are like forests,

Rich,

Varied,

Immense,

Full of surprises,

A world in themselves.

There must be a reason for this difference.

Basically,

He's talking about all other people who are not on this path,

Who don't meditate for long,

Who are not into scriptures or keeping to themselves.

These people are rich and varied and they do so many things.

Again,

Bhogis only he's talking about.

Out and about,

They're spirited.

So,

Maharaj says,

Well,

You said it.

According to you,

One got stunted in his yoga while the other flourished in bhoga.

Questioner said,

Is it not so?

The yogi is afraid of life and seeks peace while the bhogi is adventurous,

Full of spirits,

Forward going.

The yogi is bound by an ideal.

While the bhogi is ever ready to explore.

It is a matter of wanting much or being satisfied with little.

The yogi is ambitious while the bhogi is merely adventurous.

There is a discipline attached to ambition.

Yes,

It doesn't matter how I am feeling today,

How I am feeling tomorrow.

It's ambition.

I continue,

Continue,

Continue.

There is no stopping.

What does the bhogi do?

Adventure.

When I can,

When it's convenient for me,

Then I do it.

So,

There is no discipline in adventure.

It's just for fun,

Just for curiosity's sake.

Does the yogi do this for curiosity's sake?

Are you here for curiosity's sake?

Could you come to a 10-day retreat for a curiosity's sake?

You could go to a 2-day,

3-day,

4-day for curiosity.

Yeah,

You check.

Have I come here for curiosity?

Is this an adventure or is this because I am serious?

Where do I fall?

Self-evaluation.

Am I done with fun in life?

Self-evaluation question.

Your bhogi seems to be richer and more interesting but it is not so in reality.

The yogi is narrow as the sharp edge of the knife.

He has to be to cut deep and smoothly,

To penetrate unerringly the many layers of the false.

What does he mean by sharp like the edge of the knife?

Yes,

Awareness.

Yeah,

It's very sharp.

Why?

What is it required for?

Viveka.

And what is the meaning of Viveka?

To discriminate between reality and illusion.

So,

For that sharpness is required,

No?

Can you discriminate between reality and illusion if you're totally dull?

Sharp like the edge of the knife.

Viveka.

Does the bhogi have that?

So,

Number one.

Do I have Viveka or am I falling into the category of the bhogi?

Self-evaluation question.

The bhogi worships at many altars.

The yogi serves none but his own true self.

Stop there.

Do you serve many altars?

You say.

You check.

What is the meaning of serving many altars?

Yes,

Spiritual shopping.

Are you doing that?

Will you be able to really go deep?

Why?

Where are the shops?

Beautiful.

In the waking dream,

What are we moving towards?

The witness consciousness beyond the fourth.

Yeah,

If you keep coming back to the waking dream,

Will you ever be able to reach the turiya?

Is that even a possibility?

Not a possibility.

Not a possibility.

So,

If you become very clear that this is my goal,

Turiya,

The fourth,

I cannot get stuck here.

So,

I cannot serve many altars here.

Is that very clear?

Otherwise,

You'll be giving yourself mixed messages.

Here you say,

I am the waker.

Here you say,

I am turiya.

You've risen one level higher from,

I am the body,

I am not the body.

Will you ever be able to come to a resolution if you keep one foot here,

One foot here,

One foot here,

One foot here?

No,

You're forever going to be stuck.

You might get so frustrated,

You'll drop altogether the spiritual path and become a boogie.

Is that the way you want to go?

So,

Take this as a little warning that I should now get my feet off the boat,

That boat which I consider as an illusion now.

Completely attempt to get your feet grounded in reality again and again and again.

How much ever conditioning pulls me,

It's okay,

It's doing its job well.

Am I doing my job well?

No,

I'm slipping.

Can I stay beyond?

My conditioning is family,

Friends,

Job,

Political group,

Social group,

Whatever groups you have.

They are my reflections.

It is a hall of mirrors.

They are going to pull me.

Am I slipping away or can I maintain my state?

Clear?

So,

Always keep checking,

Keep checking.

Next line.

There is no purpose in opposing the yogi to the bhogi.

The way of outgoing,

Pravritti,

Necessarily precedes the way of returning,

Nivritti.

To sit in judgment and allot marks is ridiculous.

Everything contributes to the ultimate perfection.

Some say there are three aspects of reality.

Truth,

Wisdom,

Bliss.

He who seeks truth becomes a yogi.

He who seeks wisdom becomes a jnani.

He who seeks happiness or the bliss part of that becomes the man of action.

So,

He's saying drop these judgments.

He's helping the seeker drop his judgmental attitude towards the yogis.

Just see what is your goal.

Truth,

Wisdom or bliss and proceed on that path.

Pravritti precedes the nivritti.

When you were a baby,

You didn't have conditioning.

Then conditioning was put on you so that you operate in this world.

That way you learn to go outward into the world.

From your natural state,

You first went outward.

You learn all the ways of the world.

That was the purpose.

But once you learn,

Once you understand,

The right thing to do,

He said even in yesterday's chapter,

Is all the body-related desires should drop off in early life.

You should start turning within.

Once you recognize,

I'm done with learning.

So,

The pravritti,

The outgoing is done.

Now back inwards,

Nivritti.

People get stuck outside.

Those who don't get stuck are the yogis.

They turn in at the right time.

So,

That's how he is telling him don't judge the yogis.

They've done the right thing.

You figure out whether you've done the right thing or not.

Do you choose sat,

Chit or ananda?

Then you can walk on that particular path.

Those who look for sat,

What do they go towards?

What are they more inclined towards?

A yogi.

Those who are inclined towards chit?

Wisdom,

Jnana path.

And those who are inclined towards ananda?

Action,

Karma.

So,

He's saying don't judge them.

This is the way it is supposed to be.

You go out only for a while till you learn.

Then you're supposed to turn back.

So,

Drop judgment.

So,

Basically in this paragraph,

He's dissuading him from being judgmental.

In short,

The questioner says we are told of the bliss of non-duality.

Maharaj says such bliss is more of the nature of a great peace.

Pleasure and pain are the fruits of actions,

Righteous and unrighteous.

What makes the difference?

Maharaj says the difference is between giving and grasping.

Whatever the way of approach,

In the end all becomes one.

Which one is giving?

Which one is grasping?

The yogi is giving and the bhogi is grasping.

Why?

Bhoga is more about getting happiness,

Even doing action,

But doing action with an end result in mind.

So,

He's obviously grasping,

Grasping.

Who's giving?

The yogi.

Whatever the way of approach,

In the end,

All become one.

Questioner,

If there be no difference in the goal,

Why discriminate between various approaches?

Why is he saying this?

Because Maharaj says whatever the way of approach,

In the end,

All become one.

Karma yoga,

Jnana yoga and bhakti yoga will all end with the same,

At the same peak.

They will take their time.

One will be on a bullock cart,

One will be on a plane,

One will be a rocket,

A jet.

They'll take their time but they will get to the same.

That is what Maharaj said in the previous sentence.

So,

He's saying,

If anyway they are all going to get to the same,

Then why are we saying that one is better than the other?

Okay.

Questioner says,

If there be no difference in the goal,

Why discriminate between various approaches?

Maharaj says,

Let each act according to his nature.

Basically,

Keep out of it,

None of your business.

Let each act according to his nature.

The ultimate purpose will be served in any case.

All your discriminations and classifications are quite all right but they do not exist in my case.

Very important.

Become alert.

Why is he saying that?

As the description of a dream may be detailed and accurate,

Though without having any foundation,

So does your pattern fit nothing but your own assumptions.

You begin with an idea and you end with the same idea under a different guard.

However beautiful your dream is and however logically you describe your dream.

It's a dream,

No?

It's a dream,

No?

So,

He's saying,

This is all a dream for me.

What are you describing to me?

This Karma Yoga,

Gyan Yoga,

Bhoga is better than Yoga.

For me,

It's all a dream.

Has that become clear?

Where is Maharaj?

Primordial awareness.

Paramakash,

Not even at the middle step,

Not even at the witness consciousness.

Paramakash,

Primordial awareness.

So,

He's saying all this doesn't ring true for me.

He says you begin with an idea and you end with the same idea under a different guard.

That's where Maharaj ended.

So,

Then questioner asks,

How do you see things?

Maharaj says,

One and all are the same to me.

The same consciousness,

Chit,

Appears as being which is Sat and as bliss,

Ananda.

Chit in movement is Ananda.

Chit motionless is being.

Nivriti,

Towards motionless.

Pravriti,

Motion.

Primordial awareness,

Chit motionless.

You come to witness consciousness,

Chit in motion.

When I am even at pure seeing,

The world is.

Yes?

Pure seeing of what?

There is a slight duality here.

That is the motion.

Here,

Is there any kind of duality?

Is there any kind of motion?

Motionless.

Questioner says,

Still you are making a distinction between motion and motionlessness.

Maharaj says,

Non-distinction speaks in silence.

A better translation would be non-duality speaks in silence.

Words carry duality.

Instead of the word distinctions,

Words carry duality.

The unmanifested,

Nirguna,

Has no name.

All names refer to the manifested Saguna.

The unmanifested,

Which is nirguna,

Has no name.

All names refer to the manifested Saguna.

It is useless to struggle with words to express what is beyond words.

Consciousness,

Chidananda,

Is spirit.

Purusha,

Consciousness is matter.

Prakriti,

Imperfect spirit is matter.

Perfect matter is spirit.

In the beginning,

As in the end,

All is one.

It just means that don't get stuck in words.

He explained Satchitananda using the words motion and motionless.

So,

He's saying that you're still using opposites,

Motion,

Motionless.

He says,

I have to express in words,

Right?

Non-duality,

The truth of non-duality can actually be spoken only in silence.

But you will not understand silence.

So,

I have to use words.

So,

There is a purpose for these words.

But the moment I open my mouth and use words,

It's already duality.

I'm using duality to explain non-duality.

There is no other way.

There is no other way.

Otherwise,

We'll just sit in silence.

Will you get it?

It's hard to get it like that,

Right?

So,

Obviously,

To express he needs to use words.

Words belong to duality or distinction.

He has to use duality to take you to non-duality.

So,

Don't get stuck in the words.

That's all he's saying.

All division is in the mind.

Chitta.

There is none in reality.

Division is only in the mind.

Till the time I have to use words,

There is going to be division.

In reality,

There is none.

All division is in the mind.

Chitta.

There is none in reality.

Movement and rest are states are states of the mind and cannot be without their opposites.

By itself,

Nothing moves,

Nothing rests.

It is a grievous mistake to attribute to mental constructs absolute existence.

Nothing exists by itself.

Mental constructs cannot exist by themselves.

They need consciousness.

Can perception,

Sensation,

Thought,

Feeling exist by itself?

Consciousness is required to recognize their existence.

So,

Do not impart absolute existence to mental constructs.

Nothing exists by itself.

Questioner says,

You seem to identify rest with the supreme state.

Maharaj says,

There is rest as a state of mind.

Chidharam.

And there is rest as a state of being.

Atmaram.

The former comes and goes.

That means the state of mind,

Which is at rest,

Comes and goes.

While the true rest,

Which is Atmaram,

The state of being,

Is the very heart of action.

Unfortunately,

Language is a mental tool and works only in opposites.

Here Atmaram is basically the background,

The primordial awareness,

The pure consciousness,

Which is always at rest.

Yes?

That state of being is always at rest.

The mental rest is coming and going,

Coming and going.

Chidharam.

It comes and goes.

When the witness consciousness collapses,

That is Chidharam.

When the witness consciousness comes back up,

Chidharam is over.

The rest is over.

He is asking him,

Are you always at rest?

What is your state?

He wants to know how Maharaj is.

So,

As a witness,

You are working or are at rest.

Maharaj says,

Witnessing is an experience and rest is freedom from experience.

Did you recognize that the sense of I itself is an object?

Everybody,

Those who didn't recognize,

This is your next task.

That means you did not recognize that witness itself is an experience.

A sense of I itself is an experience.

If you didn't recognize,

Tomorrow morning go on a walk again and attempt to see.

Isn't that also a lot of work?

Witnessing is an experience and rest is freedom from experience.

If you have not recognized this,

Please underline this or whatever.

Highlight it as a work area for you to recognize on tomorrow's walk.

Questioner.

Can't they co-exist as the tumult of the waves and the quiet of the deep co-exist in the ocean?

Maharaj says,

Beyond the mind,

There is no such thing as experience.

Experience is a dual state.

You cannot talk of reality as an experience.

Once this is understood,

You will no longer look for being and becoming as separate and opposite.

What is the questioner wanting to do?

What is his main concern?

He wants both.

He is saying,

Witnessing also,

I want that also and I want the relief,

The freedom from experience also at primordial.

He is saying,

I want both.

Maharaj says,

Witnessing is also experience.

Can that highest reality be that experience?

Can you experience that reality?

You can only be it,

Not become.

Become also implies one day.

No,

There is no time.

You are.

You can only be You can only be reality.

Is this very clear?

Recognizing the witnessing is also work.

It is not rest.

Have you recognized this?

It is not rest.

Yes?

Where is rest?

When the witness collapses.

This guy is saying,

No,

I don't want the witness to collapse.

I want the witness up and I want that freedom from experience.

Is that possible?

I can't have both.

It's either or.

Clear?

Beyond the mind,

There is no such thing as experience.

Experience is a dual state.

You cannot talk of reality as an experience.

Once this is understood,

What is understood?

That reality cannot be an experience.

And witnessing is a dual experiential state.

Once this is understood,

You will no longer look for being and becoming as separate and opposite.

You will never look at these things as opposite.

A oneness will set in.

Yeah,

The moment you step into reality and you look out,

It's the same.

You look in,

It's the same.

There is no outside,

Inside anymore.

It is one.

Perception,

Sensation,

Thoughts and feelings are not seen as perception,

Sensations,

Thoughts and and feelings.

The world is not seen as the world.

The body is not seen as the body.

The person is not the person anymore.

It's all oneness.

There is no duality,

No two left.

When there is no duality,

When duality has dropped,

Would you see them as separate?

There is no question of seeing them as separate.

So,

Once this is understood,

You will no longer look for being and becoming as separate and opposite.

Being is primordial awareness.

Becoming is witnessing,

Witness consciousness.

In reality,

They are one and inseparable,

Like roots and branches of the same tree.

Both can exist only in the light of consciousness,

Which again arises in the wake of the sense of I am.

This is the primary fact.

If you miss it,

You miss all.

In reality,

They are one.

Means primordial awareness and witness consciousness is one.

Experience and non-experience is one.

So,

Now this is one level higher.

Primordial awareness,

Witnessing consciousness and the object are all one.

So,

Now there is non-duality through and through.

There is no world.

There is no body-mind-person.

There is no witness separate from reality.

It is all reality.

This is your final goal.

Getting to this level of oneness.

You cannot stop before that.

Please write down your goal for yourself.

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