Get Into Your Relationship W/ Love Using (ACT) W/ Dr. Harris

Want less drain and more love in your long-term relationship? Becoming psychologically flexible with Acceptance and Commitment Therapy can help you get present, refocus on your relationship values, and find deeper connection. In this conversation, Dr. Diana Hill and Dr. Russ Harris explore five things that drain your relationship, the traps of being right and blaming, a powerful skill to ground you when you are overwhelmed with emotions, and strategies to act with love, so you can get the love you want.

Original Music by Ben Gold at Bell and Branch

Transcript

How can you use act to get out of your head and into your relationship with love?

That's what we're going to explore today with Russ Harris on your life in process Welcome back I'm Diana and this podcast draws a lot from the processes of act the six core processes of act that Can help you be more psychologically flexible in your life This season is all about wise effort and one of the places where we really need to use wise effort is in our Relationships.

We've all gotten stuck in our story about the other person.

We're unable to take a different perspective Maybe we have a hard time when we get overwhelmed with our emotions in a relationship We end up acting in ways that we don't want to act we get caught up in our head our thoughts about being right or Blaming the other person we forget that we love them Forget our values and we also may have a hard time with communicating our needs effectively So right before I came down to my office to record this my husband came to the room and said do you want?

To go to a Dodgers game and I looked at him and said,

Hmm.

No,

Thanks I walked out of the room and realized wow,

That was super psychologically inflexible What a relationship drain we do that all the time these little mini Moments where we have a choice point a choice point to either turn towards the person Connect maybe take their perspective ask a follow-up question or turn away The patterning in my relationship is to shut things down quickly If I don't want to do them rather than Considering the possibility that maybe a Dodgers game could be fun and little moments like that erode relationships over time Luckily,

We always have a chance to repair.

That's the beauty of wise effort you catch yourself What is the patterning that you're stuck in you get flexible?

How can I use things like accepting discomfort or my values or Stepping back from my thoughts to help me take wise action towards what it is that I really want which may be more Connection more love more fun more play more ease in my relationship So today I'm talking with Russ Harris and he is one of the most well-known ACT trainers out there He trains therapists,

But also works with the general public He wrote one of the first books that I ever read on ACT called the happiness trap many years ago And he takes ACT and really makes it simple.

He even has a book called ACT means simple He writes that his three core values are simplicity clarity and having fun And I hope that you find this conversation simple clear and hopefully a little bit fun We're gonna be talking about his new book that just came out called ACT with love Russ is gonna share with us a simple mindfulness skill called dropping anchor that can really help you if you tend to get Dysregulated in your emotions in your relationship We're also going to talk about savoring the good in relationships and the problem with always trying to be right or blame the other person and the five things that may be Draining your relationship hint shutting down your partner really quickly when they are asking you to do something that they think might be fun is a Drain,

It's a disconnect.

I'm sorry,

Honey.

I hope you forgive me and Repair is always possible.

That's the good news and we need to catch ourselves and repair over and over again The myth is that somebody out there has some great relationship where they're having sex all the time and they're emotionally connected and they're always having fun and they're interested in each other and That is just not How it goes relationships are painful.

We get bored We turn into our worst selves the good the bad and the ugly are all part of being in a loving relationship After over 20 years of being with my partner,

There's been all three of those and hey,

We're still together So something's going right with being able to be psychologically flexible within all of that on the other side of our conversation You'll get your daily practice that you can try out at home and remember for those of you that are more life in process members You get access to those daily practices.

I have one for each and every one of the 70 plus episodes I can't believe I've done 70 of these things already 70 and it's like a little cheat sheet They're kind of fun to go back and look at and see how you can bring all these psychological Flexibility processes into different domains of your life for those of you that are clinicians and healthcare workers.

Please join me this summer I'm in a lot of different places.

I'll be presenting two workshops at the ACBS conference in July You can look me up there and in August I'll be presenting a one-hour workshop with Joseph Sorocci on process-based therapy and a full-day training a six-hour training through Pesce Continuing education on eating and body image concerns and act so I hope to see you in those places Enjoy this conversation with Russ Harris Good it's yeah,

I'm and you're on holiday.

So yeah Good morning.

I'm running It's the end of my day.

I just actually got a nice cup of black tea I'm trying to stay awake for this,

But I'm feeling I'm feeling awake and alert.

So we'll be good Good.

Well,

Hi.

Thank you for taking this time.

It's good to see you.

Thanks for having me and We're gonna talk about act and love you are as an act Practitioner and promoter you're probably one of the the main folks that people think about when they think about act and you have a really creative and applied way of bringing act to life and Making it tangible so it's useful in all things you know these these processes but in particular in our relationships and I actually went to a Workshop with you when I I think I was fresh out of graduate school in Boulder you came Oh,

Wow The happiness trap you remember this you remember coming to Boulder?

Yeah,

I think it was around the happiness trap probably.

Yeah And it was good.

I mean it was it was really good and super Helpful,

I think at the time.

I I used a lot of your work around cognitive diffusion And a lot of your skills of cognitive diffusion was sort of how you were known.

How have you evolved?

We hope that we're all evolving over the past decade and that we have Changed and grown and see things in different ways.

And yeah,

How have you evolved in your approach to back?

Well,

I think you know,

One of the things is that Self-compassion has become such a central focus So self-compassion really the easiest way to think of that is just being kind to yourself Acknowledging your pain and your difficulties and the difficult stuff you're dealing with inside yourself and the difficult stuff you're dealing with outside yourself and and being there in a kind understanding caring supportive way for yourself,

Which is Easy to say and very hard to do for most of us And that was you know,

That was kind of hovering in the background Way back when I came to Boulder,

Colorado Still remember that was such a beautiful little part of the world there.

It's lovely Whereas now,

You know rather than have that hovering in the background It is very much center stage and pretty much everything that I do.

It's a such an important part of the app model And it just makes such a difference to people,

You know,

It's it's not just about Making room for difficult thoughts and feelings living your values being in the present moment It's also about really being there in a kind caring solid way for yourself I mean I could go on that Another way that act really has evolved in the way that I teach it and train it is I put a lot of emphasis on a practice that I call dropping anchor If you're on a boat and your boat sailing into harbor and suddenly a storm blows up the first thing you need to do is drop an anchor if you don't then the storms gonna sweep your boat out to sea and When emotional storms blow up for us when there's lots of difficult thoughts feelings emotions Swirling around inside us the default setting for for most of us as we get swept away by that emotional storm and we get pulled into self-defeating problematic patterns of behavior Whether that's drugs or alcohol whether that's running away from our problems whether that's getting into conflict and strife with the people we love It it's not really good for anyone when we're swept away by an emotional storm So dropping anchor is an umbrella term for a number of different practices that that basically teach us how to anchor ourselves amidst our own emotional storm You know anchors don't control storms This isn't a way to control our feelings But it's a way to kind of hold ourselves steady so we can act effectively even as that emotional storm Rages inside us.

I really realized the power of dropping anchor when when I wrote a protocol for the World Health Organization Back in 2015 they asked me to write an app protocol for use in refugee camps around the world They've run this in Numerous countries now and published studies on this on this protocol The most dramatic one was done with South Sudanese female refugees in their Ugandan refugee camp Most of these people had multiple traumas a lot of gender-based violence pretty much everyone in the study was suffering from depression and post-traumatic stress disorder and at the same time living in these refugee camps for Hundreds of thousands of people in the most awful conditions and the World Health Organization asked Oh,

Can you write an app protocol?

I was thinking what's that gonna do for people in those awful conditions?

I kind of figured well,

It's got to be better than nothing,

Right?

If we can give people some psychological tools that can help them handle their pain and suffering a bit better in those awful conditions why not and so these kind of dropping anchor techniques were Were very much in the center of the protocol when you're going through all of that difficult stuff and lots of traumatic memories painful emotions You know just being isolated and separated from your family and living in tents and in the middle of the desert there's going to be emotional storms blowing up more and more and more and more all the time and yet people found that this kind of very simple Mindfulness skill if you like dropping anchor was really very very helpful for them as well as self-compassion It was lots and lots of self-compassion in that protocol and the results were pretty amazing Just from from 10 hours of act with the training taking place in the refugee camp people had significant reductions in depression and anxiety and PTSD so this stuff works Mm-hmm.

So dropping anchor,

You know we want to know what are the steps to dropping anchor and What powerful tool to be able to use in something like a refugee camp or to use?

Just in our households.

I actually used it this morning I was going on an early run and I was feeling really good because I was listening to the little last bit of your book the reality slap on audio and I was Coming in the door feeling good Feeling great about the day and I got a little bit of a smackdown from my husband Who was not feeling good because I was late and he was trying to get the kid off to school and I you know He couldn't find the plug for whatever and it was one of those moments where I had to drop anchor because if I had gone with It if I had gone with the irritability or pushed back both of us would be Dysregulated and then we'd be off to the races and you know,

Just not useful so Dropping anchor.

What are the steps that we do whether we're in a little mini tiff with our partner or we're in a big situation that Life has hit us hard with I'm so glad it was useful for you Yeah,

It's I mean,

This is the thing,

Isn't it?

Like relationships doesn't matter how wonderful your relationship is with you know,

You're gonna push each other's buttons at times in my workshops and trainings I always ask people,

You know kind of hands up if you're in a in a close loving relationship That only ever gives rise to pleasant feelings,

You know and not a hand goes up and then of course You know We complicate our our relationships with our partners by having children want to increase the amount of stress and anxiety That have kids,

You know It's like even dogs like dogs are a lot easier to live with than humans,

Right?

But even dogs will push your buttons at times so and Dropping anchor then is an umbrella term for literally hundreds of different exercises,

But they all are based around a very simple three-part formula and and if you like I can send you some free recordings of this that That viewers can viewers listeners listeners and viewers.

I don't know Anybody that's tuning in for any medium Can can download and listen if that would be useful Yeah,

That's great I'll put in the show notes,

Okay So dropping anchor the the three-part formula that underlies all of these different practices is easily remembered by the acronym ACE the A is For acknowledge your thoughts and feelings or acknowledge what's happening in your inner world The C is for connect with your body and the E is for engage in what you're doing And so,

You know at its simplest version you can a knowledge Okay,

Here's anger or here's some anxious thoughts or here's sadness showing up.

You just acknowledge it's there You don't try to control it.

You don't try to escape from it.

You don't try to push it down or run away from it You just acknowledge that's what's happening right now This is the same way that if you look out of the window and you see a storm you wouldn't try to Change or control the storm you'd acknowledge.

There's a storm going up The C is for connect with your body and this is very important because what happens is when emotional storms blow up We get jerked around by them and we easily lose control of our actions And that's when we start doing things that make life worse rather than better So if we can connect with our body Consciously that it gives us more control not over the storm but over the actions that we take So,

You know I often encourage people to do this by pushing their feet into the floor straightening their back having a stretch or Kind of taking a slow breath or just shifting their positions one that straighter I mean really anything that just helps you kind of oh,

I've got a body here,

You know And I've got some control over my movements and my actions,

You know Yes,

There's this really difficult thoughts and feelings showing up But I don't have to let that control what I do with my arms my legs my hands my feet my mouth So finding a way to connect with the body,

Obviously a very popular way of doing this is breathing You know as you start to breathe in and out you start to feel your ribcage moving in your shoulders moving but I encourage people to kind of You know focus more on other parts of the body rather than the breathing to really get that sense of taking Control over your actions.

So changing your position straightening your spine I'm a big fan of getting people to push their feet into the floor And particularly to stretch and move and so forth And then the E is for engage in what you're doing So you kind of bring your attention back to what you're doing right here right now the default setting is we get all caught up in our thoughts and feelings and We allow them to take our attention away from what we're doing and away from what's important So it's this bringing your attention back focusing on what's happening right here right now Often useful to take a note of where you are and what you're doing Then bring your full attention to the activity at hand.

The idea is that you cycle through this so The more intense the emotional storm the more times you would cycle through this Like the you can actually do a two-second version of this where you just acknowledge your feelings You know take a breath or push your feet into the floor and refocus your attention but with big emotional storm should usually do three or four or five minutes of this till you really had that sense of being in control of your physical actions and Focusing your attention on what you're doing and really having that sense of acknowledging and allowing the storm inside you without Trying to control it or run away from it Mm-hmm,

And sometimes that may be I was,

You know thinking about for clients that are entering into a Relationship situation they're feeling particularly anxious about it Maybe right before you move into going to talk to that person or if you're at a you know at a dinner And you're feeling like you're gonna say something you're gonna regret maybe getting up and going to the bathroom and dropping anchor But you can also do it right there wherever you are eyes open and drop anchor So it's a useful tool.

It's a tool that you can practice so that you start to decouple That I may be having a strong feeling but it doesn't necessarily have to drive my behavior Even though I'm feeling irritable.

I don't have to act irritably even though I'm feeling anxious I don't have to shrink away or run away So that dropping anchor is really helpful for that and then there's all these other things that you put in place So that's sort of you said that's one thing that you're teaching a lot of people there's values is another Big part of the book and there were some sections that I really liked about you distinguishing values from one section in particular with relationships the difference between needs and values Because we often get those mixed up where we're like I what I need is For you to be more vulnerable with me or what I need is for you to be more respect You know respect me more and we think that that's what our our values are in a relationship But it's not quite that values values and needs are different.

Can you speak a little bit to those like those subtle differences?

I'm so glad you raised this because it's such a such an important point,

You know And and most of us we easily can get on our high horse about my needs are getting met here And I what my you know,

And I need this I need that and so forth And of course,

We all do have needs in relationships But What it means are basically They're what you're trying to get from the other person in your relationship if we just talk about relationship needs You know,

What do I want from my partner?

I want them to treat me with love and respect and kindness and caring You know,

That's what I want.

That's what I need from you So they're all about what you're trying to get what you want from the other person Whereas values are how you want to behave that the qualities you want to bring to your own behavior They're not about what you want to get from the other person in your relationship They're about what you want to bring into the relationship.

They're about how you want to behave.

So,

You know I'm sure all of us in our closest relationships We all have a need for love and caring and respect In other words,

We we very very much want to get love and care and respect from other people,

But those are not values If I want to behave in a loving caring way in this relationship then my values are being loving being caring being respectful and There's a paradox here because you know,

If I desperately go out to get my needs met to get respect.

I've got to get love I've got to get this Then often I'll actually end up sabotaging the very thing that I want if I start demanding love and respect Blaming my partner or say you don't give me enough or trying to manipulate them into giving me that love and caring I'm actually going to damage the relationship whereas if I start being a loving caring respecting person in the relationship treating both myself and My partner in loving caring respectful ways.

I'm far more likely to actually get those needs met so it's really a way of empowering yourself When we focus on needs we're actually focusing on what's not in our control We're focusing on the stuff that we're trying to get whereas when we live our values We're actually focusing on what is in our control the qualities we bring to our own behavior our own actions and so the greater my ability to live my values in effective ways actually the greater my ability to get my Needs met in a relationship in ways that are healthy for both people Okay,

So for the folks that are that are yay,

That's exciting I have something I can do which is focusing on my values and identifying those but I still want my partner To meet some of my needs.

This is where some of the influence part comes in the skillful influencing How how can we work on on that part?

Great question and that's why I you know added these new sections into the book on communication skills and assertiveness skills so because firstly the way we communicate with our partner has a huge impact,

You know often Unfortunately when we feel like our needs are not getting met in a relationship An emotional storm blows up,

Right we get angry or sad or anxious Resentful whatever it is lonely and and that emotional storm jerks us around and then we start yelling or blaming or calling names or you don't do this for Me and you know all of that kind of stuff that that all couples get into at times So embarrassing when you look back and you think oh my god,

Did I really say those things?

Good job.

No one was videoing them.

I'm putting that on YouTube,

Right?

So You know The first thing is you're gonna want to learn to drop anchor if your needs are not getting met and there's difficult emotion showing up So you've got some self-control over how you speak and then you want to bring in your communication skills Which are basically,

You know,

If you if you think about how you like to be talked to by another person How would you like another person to address you?

You don't want them to be shouting at you or blaming you or calling you names You want them to be talking to you in a kind caring respectful way?

So it's a kind of Making sure that you speak that way to the other person And how do you like to be listened to you know,

If you're sharing something very important with someone you don't want them talking over you or You know challenging what you say or or being you know bored or disinterested You want them to give you your full attention?

You want them to be interested in what you have to say you want them to listen carefully and be open And so that's the other side of communication skills listening to the other person in the way that you would like to be listened to if you want to be Understood then under seek to understand if you want to be respected then show respect.

Those are some of the yeah simple Yeah strategies of communication.

Yeah.

Yeah So basically,

You know if we if we want to get our needs met in a relationship you know you want to talk to the other person the way that we would like to be spoken to and Listen to the other person the way that we would like to be listened to And that creates an atmosphere where you're much more likely to be able to Negotiate what you want and what you don't want in your relationship.

And then on top of that you bring in Assertiveness skills.

So assertiveness basically means standing up for your rights in a way that it is Fair and respectful to both yourself and the other party involved so it's it's a way of speaking in a way of communicating where you can ask for what you want and Say no to what you don't want in a way that comes across As kind of fair and respectful to the other person that's listening and if you communicate in this style and using these assertive ways of speaking You're much more likely to get what you want.

There's no guarantees You know has has the famous guru Mick Jagger once said Mother once said you can't always get what you want but yeah you're much more likely to get your needs met if you kind of come at it this way than if you do that the more typical thing that that we all do at time you start yelling and blaming or giving the Cold shoulder or it feels so good to blame and yell and it you know It scratches that itch and that's where It is sort of in that order some of these act skills where if you can Start to decouple your behavior from your thoughts you can sit longer and be with emotions and not see that you are your emotion or you have to Respond because your emotion is so strong then you may be Better able to use some of these communication skills and then yeah You have a you have a better chance of getting what you want But you might not either which then you go back to the act skills again I'm like,

Maybe I need to leave this thing.

And if I do leave,

Thank goodness I can practice acceptance and I can use my values to leave in a way that is Aligned with the type of person I want to be so it is a Helpful Framework no matter where you are in your relationship,

And and I don't know you are you in a relationship?

Are you not in a relationship?

Yeah I Have a child from my first marriage and I'm in a long-term De facto relationship with my partner Tash,

Which is She has taught me a lot over the years And so so we've done that blended family thing and I've got to say I mean I use these skills Pretty much all the time.

It's You know Because it's not also just about when things are going wrong.

It's also about when things are going right,

You know So like when you do get your needs met in a relationship,

How do you respond to that?

If you just take them for granted,

That's not healthy.

You want to consciously appreciate them gratitude can reciprocate You know Enjoy all those little moments in a relationship where things are going.

Okay,

Or things are going great again,

The default setting of our mind is to focus on those times when things are not so good and for many of us we kind of ruminate on that stuff and go over and over you know that Negative thing or that hurtful thing that was said in the fight and and we can easily miss out on all the stuff in the relationship That's that's good That's going on that that big danger that we have of taking things for granted So again,

This is one of the the benefits of mindfulness it enables us to notice what's actually happening right now and kind of savor and appreciate the the stuff in our life that The that is good and enjoyable and meaningful.

Yeah and mindful of what I mean I think that in some of the root teachings on mindfulness.

It's mindfulness isn't Stand-alone as you are being mindful of something So are you being mindful of what your partner is?

Doing that is something that you want or something that you appreciate or are you being are you being hyper focused on what's going wrong?

Or what they you know missed out on and that's you know,

I think that's some of what I did this morning was dropping the Dropping the urge to get irritable back and Be mindful of the fact that he's taking my child to school so that I could have a 9 a.

M.

Meeting And that's a nice thing,

You know to have a partner that is a co-partner in all things with parenting.

So that's Definitely one of those relationship enhancers and influencers when you start to focus on the things that they're doing Well,

And we know that from just behavioral psychology that which you reinforce will grow But when do you have an example I mean I always love your choice point model that you did with Joseph Sorocci and and Bailey and that is one of those,

You know really nice simple models of Pausing and making a choice the towards values choice or an away from values choice Do you have an example that illustrates that from your relationship towards or away?

Choice point example or it won't be parenting.

They're all over the place Well,

I have a recurrent example that happens,

You know both with my partner and with my my son which is that I have a terrible tendency to want to be right about things and you know kind of Steve Hayes the the creator of act.

He's got a saying that I love he says there are two cardinal sins looking good and being right and And You know Both of those can can be highly problematic if we've got to look good or we've got to be right boy,

Can that kind of hook us and pull us into some problematic behavior,

So I Am the youngest child in a large family where where we all love being right and we hate being wrong And so that's one of my kind of worst behavioral repertoires that comes out You know when I'm not careful of trying to win arguments and be right and justify my point and Discount everyone else and use all these kind of argumentative tactics to be right and Over many decades.

I've gotten pretty good at catching myself most of the time But not all the time,

You know,

You never get to be perfect.

There's always room for improvement So I have these little choice points,

You know Sometimes there will have been a conflict or tension With my son or with my partner and that urge to be right is showing up and I can think of all the arguments that I could make and all the you know points I can use to justify why I'm right and they're wrong and If I'm lucky I kind of catch myself and I'll drop anchor.

I'll notice that there's anger showing up But underneath that there's my own insecurity,

You know it doesn't feel good to be wrong and you know one of the reasons why we all like to be right is because you feel strong and powerful when In you're wrong you feel I don't know.

It's not it's not a very pleasant feeling So I kind of noticed that you're the youngest of a lot of kids.

Yeah,

Exactly.

You got to fight for that being right?

Yeah,

Exactly exactly So I noticed those feelings showing up I noticed the you know,

I'm right you're wrong story and I kind of go,

You know,

Look there's a choice here I can go along with this pattern of behavior and argue and debate and possibly win the argument I'm actually very good at arguing.

I could have been a lawyer in a in a different lifetime Or I can do something that's just going to work better for the relationship.

Just let it go.

Okay we've got a difference of opinion or I Just internally say,

You know,

They probably didn't mean that or it's not really worth fighting about it's a minor thing What what can I do now to?

Kind of repair the the relationship.

So this is another Part of the book I kind of draw on Gottman's work on repair attempts that all relationships come with conflict and tension and Repair attempts anything that you do to kind of repair that the damage that was done That's so essential to building a healthy relationship the faster you can come in with those repair attempts the better so the choice point then It's usually represented in the form of a diagram where there's just two diverging arrows,

You know One that goes up They start near the bottom of the page and one arrow goes up to the top left corner and the other arrow goes up To the top right corner.

The left hand arrow is usually labeled as a way When you do away moves They're things that take you away from the person you want to be and the life you want to live in this case from the Sort of relationship you want to build Right arrow is usually labeled Towards when you do towards me is the things that take you towards the person you want to be the life you want to live The relationship you want to build and at the bottom there's usually a little circle drawn and that's that's the choice point Well,

That's where you kind of write down what your thoughts and feelings are that are showing up in the moment What the situation is that you're finding difficult?

And you know,

It's a it's a way of just kind of mapping out that there are these choices.

Yeah,

This is a tough situation Yes,

There's these difficult thoughts and feelings and what am I gonna do?

I'm gonna do something that takes me towards the life I want or away and this is where you need unhooking skills dropping anchor skills self-compassion skills because those difficult thoughts and feelings Are so intense and so powerful in really difficult situations If we don't learn those skills Then the default setting is we're going to get hooked and dragged away by that emotional storm and pulled into those away moves It's just that's what's going to happen but with more and more practice we can get better at side of recognizing that unhooking and Coming back to our values and back to our relationship skills and choosing alternative behaviors that are going to work better for the relationship So first you have to even know what your values are and you also have to know what being hooked is Like what what are your hooks and what are your you know?

You have that I'm being right and it is helpful to know your top Few in the relationship because I do think we tend to have a few that we go over and over and over again,

Too That are when we get hooked.

What do we do?

I'm a blamer.

I like to blame the other person I like to like no matter what it is if the kitchen's a mess I'm blaming someone else even if I'm looking at the kitchen and it was probably Contributed to making it a mess.

It's always easier to blame and part of that is yeah the taking responsibility for something makes you feel vulnerable,

Right so Oftentimes our way moves are because we're avoiding some kind of vulnerable feeling of you know the feeling of not knowing or the feeling of being wrong or and You have this list of drains which I think are you know helpful to think about in a lot of ways the being right or?

Blaming someone is the D the disconnection that Happens in the relationship when when we're when we're so focused on being right all of a sudden We're no longer in that interdependence with the other person or when I'm blaming my kid or blaming my husband for something I'm not connected to them.

So there's the the D and drain But maybe you can walk us through some of the other drains on a relationship and they can help us See,

You know what leads us away from our values.

It's a drains an acronym.

I love acronyms So that as you said D is for disconnection you're sort of you're cutting off You're not really present with your partner in a in an open and interested in curious way.

You're cutting off in various ways The R is for reactivity.

That means you're basically just jerked around by your thoughts and feelings as if you're a puppet on a string the the a is for avoidance of discomfort,

You know avoidance of uncomfortable feelings so Relationships always come with I you know,

I kind of say that love and pain are intimate dance partners They go hand in hand you you don't get one without the other Another great act saying is we hurt where we care So there will be pain and there will be uncomfortable feelings And if you need to avoid those uncomfortable feelings,

Then you're going to have to avoid Important parts of your relationship,

You know Because those difficult conversations those negotiations about needs those things you have to talk about they all bring up uncomfortable feelings for many people You know physical intimacy sexual intimacy may bring up uncomfortable feelings If you're not willing to make room for that then physical or sexual intimacy goes out of the window.

There's all sorts of things So the the more avoidant you are of discomfort the more problems that I is for inside your mind so The technical term for this is cognitive fusion.

We get all caught up in our thoughts entangled in our thoughts beliefs ideas and it basically lost inside our mind and you know that may manifest as rumination or worrying or Obsessing or you know revenge fantasies.

I'm gonna get back at you for this that and the other You know just all that helpful stuff that we easily end up dwelling on and we're so lost in our thoughts We're missing out on life and can't really be present with our partner.

Well,

We're caught up in that stuff And then the end is for neglecting your values,

You know again,

It's so fundamental to act this idea of using your values as a compass to guide your life as a motivator to influence your behavior and Unfortunately when when we get hooked by those thoughts and feelings often our values fly out of the window and we just Fall back into doing most of the unhelpful things we do in relationships.

We learn at a very young age You know if you actually Were to record yourself doing those things that are most destructive in the relationship You would see that they're very similar to the things that two-year-old children or what we saw our parents do I was just at my parents house last night,

And I watched my mom blame my dad Okay,

Bingo That's where I got that from and it is that awareness of catching yourself in the inflexible response that the automatic Go to and those five things of am I disconnecting?

Am I reacting?

Am I am I just you know getting?

Jerked around by my emotions am I avoiding?

Am I it's stuck inside my head with some kind of story about my partner and not really seeing my partner Or am I neglecting my values?

I'm I'm actually not acting if someone videotaped me I wouldn't feel good about what I saw on that video or I wouldn't want my partner to describe me the way that I'm acting Right now.

Those are good little Markers to course-correct and we're all gonna do it.

So that's the other part of it It's just this is the way the relationships are There's some myths beliefs that people have that there's some perfect couple out there that's not doing these things Which is and you know having great sex and never reacting and never avoiding Ever inside their heads that does not exist.

We are we're all doing it.

We're all drains We've all been a drain and our partners have all been a drain At some point in time,

But hopefully we can get better at catching ourselves and doing it a little bit differently Yeah,

That's the thing you all we can we can evolve we can improve our behavior But we're never gonna be perfect,

You know,

So so it's like You know certainly when I'm working with couples an important thing that we address towards the end of therapy is,

You know What are you gonna do when when they screw up?

You know when your partner forgets this stuff because it's gonna happen at times.

What are you gonna do then?

Because You know,

Yeah,

The idea is that you're experimenting with new behaviors.

You're trying new things.

Of course,

You're gonna screw up and make mistakes And if if your partners got no room for that if the moment you screw up they're just right back in you know beating away with their kind of You know that big stick pointing out all the things that are wrong How you've screwed up again and so forth then that just demotivates any change So,

You know,

It's it's about firstly how you can be there in a kind and caring way for yourself Right back to that self-compassion stuff.

Okay.

I screwed up.

I fell back into my old habits But you know,

I say to clients if beating yourself up was a good way to change behavior Wouldn't you be perfect by now,

You know?

Beating ourselves up doesn't really help.

So Acknowledging it's painful it hurts when we screw up and and being there in a kind caring supportive way for yourself and in the ideal world also Having that from your partner.

It's not always going to happen But that would be the ideal thing too so that you both encourage and support each other to to grow Well,

That's where compassion.

I I'm actually coming out with a book on self-compassion and act cool the spring and That's where I I see compassion as a flow as well because we can do self-compassion It also really helps to have compassion for your partner and then the other one that we often block is Receiving compassion from our partners that flow that Gilbert talks about that.

Sometimes our partners are trying to offer us Compassion or forgiveness and we're so stuck in our resentment.

We won't even receive it So we're you know,

We're blocking compassion or we don't have compassion for them.

And I often will say sometimes I'll say in my head I don't like him right now,

But I love him My kid or My partner like like you don't have to like your partner all the time or like what they're doing Yeah,

And you can remember that you love them There was a reason at some point that you decided to be with this person live with this person whatever it is,

Wherever you're at in your relationship and We forget that when we're in the heat of the moment and we're not liking them So that's where you know Some compassion actually can help with that because we see that they're human and they're just doing what humans do which is Kind of a dream.

They are they are One of the exercises in the book to develop that compassion for your partner.

I see to imagine them as a little child and kind of you know when when we When we see our partner as a little child,

It's a whole different experience You know when you've got that big grown adult,

They're so easy to get angry and blame and call names but in your Imagination when you start to see them as a little child the very idea of yelling or shouting or calling names at that little child Is abhorrent to you know,

It's like oh my god.

And and of course what we forget is Inside these big adults.

There is that little child,

You know at a fundamental emotional level We still hurt and feel the same emotions that we did as little kids and we're still looking in our Relationships for what we wanted as little kids.

We're looking for that love and care and kindness So it's a very powerful exercise that usually for most people Triggers a bit of guilt actually it's like oh my god I've been saying all these things to my partner and I wouldn't dream of saying these things to a little kid Sometimes I'll do that as a like if I'm doing a couple session Where I'll have one one partner and they have to be pretty comfortable with this because it's pretty intimate exercise,

But I'll have one partner close their eyes and the other partner look at them and Say they're a couple they're coming in there like in their 60s or something and I'll say okay now look at them and while the person with the person with their eyes closed is Remembering what it was like when they were a child and then the person their eyes open is looking at the face Of their partner remembering what it was like when they were a child and then I'll say remember what it was like when you when you first brought your baby home and then remember what it was like say I know something detailed like when when you lost your father and in that way you start to see the Emotion of your partner the vulnerability the highs the lows all the things that you've been through with them That you forget when you're in a conflict because when you're a conflict,

You're just caught in the story.

You're not actually Seeing the humanity of this very vulnerable human that you've chosen to spend You know,

Whatever portion of your life with so doing exercises like that.

You can do it as a therapist,

But even just doing it Having that perspective shift It's a person that's a process right perspective taking having that perspective shift with your partner if you can shift Perspectives just the tiniest bit it'll give you more room to then maybe respond From that different perspective as opposed to the one that you're all caught up in.

I learned that from Or a version of that from Christopher grimmer because I went on a compassionate Couples retreat and he had us do this all these exercises with each other as couples One person having their eyes closed and it's quite vulnerable and you know,

They're persons crying and everything.

It's Lovely,

There's so much that we know about.

Yeah,

This person that we love that we forget when we're caught up in our There's a bit in the book where I kind of point out that that you know We learn the the basics of what makes a good relationship we learn it in kindergarten all those basic rules you know kind of Don't shout take your turn Listen carefully.

Don't lie Pack up after yourself,

You know all of these basic little rules.

We teach kids that are actually Fundamentally healthy to adult relationships to if we you know,

If we think of the broader implications of those rules What they promote about Reciprocity giving taking respect care for others and so forth Boy,

Would our relationships be easier if we applied those things more?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

There's the basic I guess there's both there's the basic rules of treating each other with respect and then there's also the deeper intimacy of Being willing to be vulnerable With somebody and I don't know if we're taught that in kindergarten and those That's the part that we don't get taught.

We actually are You know,

You start crying kindergarten.

It's okay if you cry,

But by the time you get to sixth first grade Yeah,

You better figured out that crying thing,

You know,

Because you're now you're a disruption to the classroom We're not in kindergarten anymore.

I think that's like probably a really classic line of first grade teachers.

You're not in kindergarten anymore kid And and so that actually is something that we have to train ourselves back into in our relationships especially the men often are trained out of being vulnerable or trained out of showing be able to show emotion or and So yeah,

Some stuff we are taught in kindergarten that we should remember,

You know,

Like Cleaning up after ourselves and other stuff.

We aren't That vulnerability that willing to be open and let people know what's difficult for you and what you're struggling with and what you really care about Again,

That requires that willingness to make room for all the uncomfortable feelings that show up and we're vulnerable particularly anxiety And so all these skills really come together,

You know,

Can I open up and make room for those feelings?

Can I be really present with the other person?

You know,

What are the values underlying?

Vulnerability,

You know,

There's no point in just being vulnerable for the sake of it Is that going to allow me to be loving caring kind build the sort of relationship that I want,

You know So It's rich stuff We'll put a link to the dropping anchor,

Which just seems like a really foundational tool In the show notes,

And I would also say that you have so many Little videos,

I mean you're like massively Productive in the arena of these teachings make you invite size two minutes three minutes five minutes videos,

So you can just Just Google Russ Harris and you'll get plenty just even doing that I don't have to put them all in the show notes,

But and then we'll put links to your books But if there's one if there's one takeaway that you know based on our conversation today or just in general that you want to offer Around act with love.

What would it be?

Well,

I Would come back to that idea which if memory serves me correctly is actually the first sentence of the book Love and pain are intimate dance partners,

You know,

They go hand in hand So just that obviously not all the time You know,

You hopefully you're you're loving relationships have lots of wonderful moments where there are no difficult feelings Inevitably,

That's difficult painful feelings will show up at times There will be conflict and tension and if you can just start by acknowledging,

Okay,

This is part of the package This is part of what comes with a loving relationship.

Then that's Useful much better than the default setting.

Oh,

There's something wrong with my relationship.

We shouldn't be like this,

You know the perfect couples They don't have this kind of problem,

You know,

And all of that sort of rumination Catastrophizing that so easily hooks us.

So just kind of recognizing that with love comes pain Mm-hmm.

And then the second part of that that you do write about is that you have a Bill of Rights and if that pain is Because somebody is abusing that Bill of Rights Then you have the right to leave so knowing that too just because love comes with pain doesn't mean you have to stay with the pain If somebody is abusing you not respecting you.

Yeah,

Not valuing you or it's really clear that you're not the right fit Yes Yes permission to leave and all the all the same processes that you talk about with active level help you with that leaf Yeah,

Well,

You know to leave I mean,

Thanks for saying that because yeah,

There's nothing it's you know act acceptance and commitment therapy It's not it's not passive acceptance therapy.

So it's commitment to do the things that improve So yeah,

If pain is coming up because you're being neglected or abused or mistreated then,

You know committed action to stop that from happening and In fact,

There's an there's an index appendix to the book Which is if all of this stuff fails how to leave your relationship in a in a constructive effective way rather than leaving your relationship getting pulled into all the unhelpful stuff that lawyers love because it spills out into you know Huge amounts of money and pain and suffering for everyone except the lawyers so If very very important,

Yes,

Let's take action build the relationships look after ourself Yeah Okay.

Well,

Thank you Russ Harris.

Good to speak with you from Australia and thank you for this time together I hope that folks find it of benefit to them and their relationships.

Well,

Thank you.

Thanks Dan And that was a great conversation.

Look forward to reading your book when it comes out.

Take care Two tips from today's podcast that I want you to try out at home.

The first one is dropping anchor I'll put a link to Russ Harris's mindfulness practice of dropping anchor So there's three steps to dropping anchor in a relationship when you notice yourself caught in a moment conflict suffering pain a is Acknowledge your thoughts and feelings notice them observing what's happening in your inner world C is come back to your body push your feet into the floor ground yourself straighten your spine press your fingertips together Slowly breathe and then E is engage in what you are doing refocus your attention on your partner on this moment These three steps to dropping anchor are the precursor to then taking some wise action The second thing that I want you to try this week is to try out that exercise that I mentioned look at your partner across Their lifespan as you're looking at your partner imagine them as a little kid Imagine them with their first boyfriend or girlfriend Imagine them when you first met them imagine them when maybe if you had a child together or one of your first big events that you shared a pet and Then see them here and now by seeing them in all these different contexts You may develop a little bit more compassion for them appreciation for them and see them as more of a human So try those things out and well wishes for love in your relationships Thank you so much for listening to this episode of your life in process when you enter your life in process When you become psychologically flexible you become free Please join me as a member at your life in process calm And if you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody please leave review over at pod chaser calm Or call me at 805 457 2776 email me at podcast at your life in process calm I want to thank my team Craig Ashley Hyatt Elaine Schmilken And thank you to Ben gold at Bell and branch for his original music This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment