The Regenerative Journey | Ep 7 | Lorraine Gordon

In this episode, Charlie chats to Lorraine Gordon. Lorraine takes us back to her early twenty's when she first stepped onto the land, and her formidable journey from this point on. We cover off on some of her most important career milestones including her recent project the launch of the world's first Regenerative Agricultural degree course at SCU. We talk Australia's positioning on the world stage and also the regen. ag definition debate. 

Transcript

Our soils are the oldest soils in the world.

We don't and shouldn't farm the way Europe farms because we need to farm the Australian way.

We needed to listen to Indigenous elders while the knowledge was still there and we didn't.

So we've made some massive mistakes.

Let's make no bones about that.

That was Lorraine Gordon and you're listening to The Regenerative Journey.

G'day I'm your host Charlie Arnott and in this podcast series I'll be uncovering the world of regenerative agriculture,

Its people,

Practices and principles and empowering you to apply their learnings and experience to your business and life.

I'm an eighth generational Australian farmer who transitioned my family farm from industrial methods to holistic regenerative practices.

Join me as I dive deep into the regenerative journeys of other farmers,

Chefs,

Health practitioners and anyone else who's up for a yarn and find out why and how they transition to a more regenerative way of life.

Welcome to The Regenerative Journey with Charlie Arnott.

G'day welcome back to the show.

Today's episode is all about Lorraine Gordon.

Some of you may have heard about Lorraine.

It's all good.

She's a real dynamo and I caught up with Lorraine at the MIGRAZING field day up at Ebor in February this year.

Lorraine has really paved the way for not just females but certainly people in the regenerative ag space,

Certainly in the government policy creation and certainly in the tertiary education world.

She's the Southern Cross University Director of Strategic Projects and the founder of the Regenerative Agriculture Alliance based up there at SCU.

We talk about early days of farming for her and her family,

Sort of background,

How she got to be at age 21 the manager of their family property up there at Ebor.

We talk about on-farm tourism,

Adoptive agriculture versus adaptive agriculture.

She had her own experience with the bushfires of December that were rife in that part of the world.

We talk about grazing ruminants and grass-fed beef and we touch a little bit on human health and what she calls action research,

Which is fascinating,

A very important component of this whole world of regenerative farming and farming in a natural way.

We also talk about her definition of regenerative agriculture.

We touch on a whole lot of different really interesting things,

Had a lot of fun with Lorraine,

Always good value,

Calls a spade a spade and I trust that you'll enjoy Lorraine's spade calling as much as I did in this wonderful interview.

Lorraine,

Thanks for joining us on our podcast,

The Regenerative Journey.

Pleasure Charlie.

We've been trying to tee this up for a little while now,

Haven't we?

We have,

We have.

And I noticed your gear's improving mate.

Couldn't have been much worse than what I used to use.

Lorraine,

Why don't you tell us about where we are?

This is Lorraine Gordon country up in Ebor.

It is.

And where we are,

What we're doing here today.

Yeah,

So we're at the Wilmot field day.

So they're talking about really good grazing management practice and everything that's going on here today is about regenerative practice in the grazing sector.

And congratulations to Wilmot for putting these sort of field days on because I think if nothing else,

Farmers go away really starting to question how they farm and why they do what they do.

And it's a lot to take in in one day,

But you know,

That's how farmers learn by talking to each other and hearing from other farmers what their experiences are.

Have you got a sense of how many people here from,

You know,

Maybe let's call them conventional farming backgrounds or,

You know,

This is quite new to them and you know what I'm going to do is move that aside a little bit and show your face.

There you go.

Make it shy.

Geez.

Right behind the mic.

Yeah,

Look,

I'm looking around the crowd here today.

Actually rural Australia is a very small place when you get about like you and I do.

And I probably say we've got 50-50.

I think the great thing about these sort of days is that they do drag in some quite conventional farmers.

In all honesty,

I think a lot of the young ones really get it and I think that's where our focus really needs to be.

It's sort of hard to lead,

You can lead the horse to water but you can't make a drink.

And so I think it's some people are open to try new things and to change the way they farm and others just take a bit longer to get there.

Talking about drinking,

We just had a thunderstorm here which made us all pack up our gear and come inside.

The season is pretty good up here,

Lorraine.

A bit of recovery has gone on.

It's a very interesting thing that's going on in Ebor and traditionally people would say Ebor is drought proof.

It's probably some of the best grazing country in Australia next to the Atherton table and it's up north.

After Boorawat.

After Boorawat.

Yes,

So it's really interesting what I've seen happen here in the last three or four years and the rain has come later.

Normally by the 1st of November we would get big storms like we've seen this afternoon,

Every afternoon,

Downpours of rain.

So three years ago that didn't come until December.

Two years ago it didn't come until January and this year we're nearly into March.

It was February before it came.

So that's three months after what used to be a pretty reliable rainfall in a very reliable rainfall area such as Ebor.

So it's not drought proof and even Ebor itself is not removed from having bad fun and bad farming practices actually have repercussions in what is a very non-brittle area such as Ebor.

I mean we're basically next to rainforest here and Arctic Beach and it's an incredible country but that doesn't mean that if we don't practice grazing in a regenerative manner that we can't stuff it up very quickly.

It's not evident at the moment because as I say and others say everyone looks at a good farm when it's rain and there's grass but I guess to the trained eye you can sort of there are indicators aren't there that things could be done differently.

Certainly at Wilmot here they're doing a wonderful job of retaining ground cover.

They had a bushfire through here three months ago now I think it was.

Did you get caught in that bushfire?

We got smashed.

We absolutely got smashed by that fire.

Actually I was caught in the middle of two fires that sort of decided they'd meet at our farm so that got pretty interesting.

We lost a lot of our boundary fences.

We nearly lost Yarrindoo,

Our function centre if it wasn't for RFS and National Parks bombing it with the choppers to save that sort of infrastructure but we probably got six to twelve months of cleaning up all the infrastructure around those buildings.

So it was pretty nasty and I've got to say I talked to some of my traditional landowners up here and Aboriginal folk and none of us have ever seen rainforest burn like what we saw.

That's country that because of how wet and damp it normally is at this time of year just it used to be nearly impossible to burn.

So certainly it was a shock to experience that and I still wonder whether some areas will recover from what happened.

It was a very hot fire.

I want to get back to that because that's very topical.

We're in the area that as you said traditionally wasn't burnt.

I know when Stuart took over the management of here at Wilmot the previous managers said we don't get bushfires and there's no plan.

So I want to pick that up later but what I'm interested in is your regenerative journey.

You are your – actually I won't spoil too much.

Why don't you tell us Lorraine?

Give us a bit of a – map it out a bit.

Okay well I guess I've been farming in Ebor for 34 years and I actually came from the city so I came to run the family property at the age of 21.

I guess I was the only one left in the family with any knowledge of the land and that was minimal in a lot of respect as well.

I mean I'd just gone to Ag College.

I'd always wanted to be a farmer funnily enough since I was 14,

The girl from the western suburbs of Sydney but I went to Ag College and I literally graduated from Ag College and ended up coming straight up to Ebor to run this property which in those days it didn't have any infrastructure,

No improvements.

In fact it wasn't even fenced so it was sort of the cattle were running through 55,

000 hectares of national park and forestry so it was a bit of a journey.

It was like just starting from scratch.

So I have in those days when I came up the obvious thing to do was to listen to your neighbours.

What do they do?

How do they farm up here?

Because at Ag College I hadn't actually studied this area at all.

I was into intensive irrigation and cropping and all sorts of things other than cattle grazing.

So in that respect I sucked up all the knowledge I could from local farmers and the so-called experts and consultants and tried to keep up with the Joneses.

There was so much work to do.

To take a 100% native property which was at the time you're looking at nearly 6,

000 acres of native pasture with very little fencing,

Had one paddock and no other infrastructure except a couple of old cabins and to sort of then think oh my god I've got a clear country I've got to improve it I've got to get that triple super on,

All of these things was just a nightmare because I had no cash.

I had this property to run but actually there was no funds.

So just on that one,

What got you here?

Can I ask what was the,

From the city,

You said you're sort of the only one of the family members with some farming sort of knowledge at your university so what got you here to what sounds like a pretty dubious sort of a career path?

Yeah it was interesting.

I did lose a lot of family members in the space of a couple of years.

All sorts of things,

Heart attacks,

Car accidents,

Cancer,

You name it,

They all sort of started to bowl over and it was sort of I was the last one standing so to speak that had any knowledge at all or any will to even want to go out to the back of nowhere,

This gorgeous little place called Ebor which had a population probably still does of about 80 people and I think at that time that included dogs.

So but I just you know from the moment I hit here I loved everything about it.

Just you know I'd actually travelled out west,

I'd been out in Canambal,

Pilliga,

Come by chance and all those areas and every school holiday I ever had I'd be gone out into country areas including up here when I was quite young.

But yes it was an unfortunate,

It was a series of unfortunate events that I ended up up here but I never looked back because the challenges just kept coming you know and so I guess that you talk about resilience well you know I'd sort of in those days had had it all.

I was 21 years old and I'm trying to tell you know older men who they were in their 60s a lot of them that worked on that property you know that I had to,

I was in charge now not them and that wasn't easy either.

And you know a woman like that it's hard enough for a young buck to come home or come back to a property but yeah that would have been tough too.

Yeah it was it was interesting it was interesting and you learn a lot about people.

Knowing you Lorraine I'm sure you just got on and did it.

Well it was either that or it was gone so I only had,

There was a caveat on this property which made it quite interesting that I was to be given a couple of years to turn it around before anybody could sell it or do anything.

Did you know that at the time?

I did find that out about halfway through and so there was you know there was a fairly good carrot at the end to make sure that this thing worked,

This idea of me being there to run it.

But anyway the journey sort of did continue and one thing I did get into tourism on the place pretty early on because I know I knew that I needed another enterprise so we could be profitable and trout fishing was a big thing up here.

So I could see these fly fishermen coming staying in our cabins,

Old family friends from the city and I thought god there must be a way to make money out of this.

I've got a national park on my doorstep and I've got all these people wanting to come and fish for trout.

So I quickly cottoned onto those industries and so I've had that sort of joint career I guess in tourism and agriculture.

I think that gave me a little bit of an edge in some ways because I could look at the whole industry,

The beef industry and question why do we do things this way?

Why are we such price takers?

Why don't we just constantly do what everybody else tells us to do?

Because in the tourism industry you set your product,

You set your price,

You deliver a standard that's your standard and you get reimbursed for that quality service and product that you supply to the consumer.

So that was a bit of a point of difference for you and a real benefit having not had farming paradigms?

Yeah I came from a different paradigm in that context and I thought why don't we do this for beef?

And so it's about 28,

I think it's 28,

29,

It could even be 30 years ago now that Ebor beef was born out of that concept.

When you must have been only 10 then.

I'm only 10,

I'm sure I'm not much older Charlie than 10.

And I thought we are stronger working together,

We're all trying to market our stock but imagine if 100 cattle farmers from the area actually pulled their resources together,

Employed a coordinator to market their cattle,

Then we'd have a voice because we'd have a lot of product.

Quality grass fed beef coming off an incredible area,

Clean farms and I thought wow that's a product.

So the concept of Ebor beef was born and it's still going today.

Was anyone else doing that?

Was it a new?

No they weren't at the time.

And so it was myself and a couple of others including Wayne Upton who was the beefo at the time.

Wayne was a lecturer of mine.

That's him,

He's still about and a great bloke.

So we got our heads together on that one and off it went from there.

And it is a marketing group,

They dabbled into actually investing along the supply chain and having a branded product.

That's a difficult road in the beef industry because you've got a lot of waste and you've got to be able to sell the whole beast.

So not every cut is a premium cut.

So for various reasons they got out of that space but still going today is a very strong marketing group.

And I think that sort of brings in where I've ended up today,

The whole power of collaborating with others and working together.

And whether that be something like a cooperative structure or just a loose collaboration or some other form.

Others are always going to be stronger when they pool resources and work together with each other.

That's when really magic things can happen from there.

Well they say you want to go fast,

Go alone.

If you want to go far,

Go together.

That's it.

That's it.

So eBor beef,

When did you sort of start,

I mean the word regenerative agriculture is a reasonably new one.

When did you start thinking about that type of farming or variations of that?

Well I did,

I think I must have been one of the first students ever to do RCS with Terry McOsker and crew.

Where was that?

I think I did that up in Toowoomba actually when I went to that school.

That was a real turning point.

So a real paradigm shift.

I thought,

Oh my God,

I only need a wheelbarrow.

I don't need to have to,

You know,

I mean it was pretty extreme stuff back then.

But it was still what we all needed.

We needed a jolt to the system.

And you know,

RCS and Terry McOsker has done more for grazing and farming in this country than anyone else I know really.

And I think a lot of people would agree with that.

And so I did his school back in the day 20 odd years ago.

And since then I think I've done it four times because I've put children through it and staff through it.

And each time I come away with just another little thought bubble on what if.

So it's you never stop learning,

Which is I think what's held me in this agricultural space so solidly for so long.

Because I like a challenge and I like to continually learn.

And the difference between agriculture and the tourism sector is I think you can,

The lessons run out pretty quickly in tourism.

Pretty well if you do this and you put this with that,

You'll get that result.

It doesn't work that way when you're talking ecology and agriculture,

You know,

Because you'll get a different result every time.

So that's the key is to be able to read a landscape and actually read what's going on with your soils,

With your plants,

With the animals,

With everything.

You've got to be able to have that,

I guess,

Very open mind to question everything you're seeing.

And that's what keeps me here.

That's a great point about the comparing tourism and agriculture.

I've never thought of that way.

I guess,

You know,

What we say is,

You know,

My sense of regenerative agriculture is it's a very non-prescriptive type of farming,

You know,

Because the alternative of what I used to do and what you used to do when you got back to Ebor originally was a very prescriptive,

You know,

Talk to the agronomist,

What do I spray,

What do I put down,

What are my inputs,

What's my outputs.

It doesn't allow for the flexibility of making a lot of your own decisions essentially and actually being responsible for those decisions.

So and then that leads to sort of,

You know,

The adoption versus adaption of practices.

What practices did you adapt?

Well certainly the time control grazing.

So then that has made a massive difference on our farm.

I think back then we would have been carrying a few hundred head and now,

You know,

We're a thousand head of steers,

You know,

Aiming for the MSA grass fed market.

So and that's not put it from putting on masses of super phosphate and artificial fertilizers.

Yes,

I do correct the mineral deficiencies in the soil based on soil tests.

So you know there are inputs as needed.

But yes it's been a slow but evolving journey and,

You know,

I always say when I talk about regenerative ag,

You know,

You don't need to go into complete detox here.

You don't have to adopt 10 tools at once.

And when I explain to other farmers some of the tools we use in regenerative ag,

A lot of them say,

Wow,

I'm already doing two or three of those things.

And then that's the light bulb moment.

I say,

You know what,

You're already on the journey.

You're already on that journey to farming more sustainably and repairing any damage that's been previously done.

And just take it gently because,

You know,

Nobody likes to go into a complete detox and think particularly in farming,

You know,

That's a good way to go broke.

So it's just a gentle,

Gentle and I guess the other thing that,

You know,

So often we hear and you do hear it in organics,

You know,

It's a very prescriptive model.

You tick that box,

You get your organic certification.

Well in regenerative ag it's not like that because it's a whole way of thinking.

It's holistic thinking and it's questioning and it's a different journey for everybody that takes it.

And so it's not a prescriptive type journey to take.

It's just different tools for different circumstances,

Always keeping in mind that everything comes from the soil.

And as we've heard today,

You know,

You look after your pastures,

They'll look after the soil and it'll all look after the animals.

So it's just a different,

It's a different way of thinking.

And you know,

The whole regenerative practice,

It's going to take over the world.

It's not all about agriculture,

But of course it starts with agriculture.

Most things do,

But we'll see regenerative practice in our urban design,

In our health systems and everything,

Because it's all connected.

Lorraine,

Your regenerative journey doesn't just consist of farming and tourism.

What else?

I know what else you're doing.

Tell us what else you're doing.

What I'm doing now or what I'm doing?

I don't know.

Like,

You know,

Maybe even the stuff you were doing to get to where you are now that was off farm,

You know,

You've been the recipient of a number of awards,

Business awards and entrepreneurial type awards,

You know,

How did you get to that point?

That's not thunder,

That's Charlie's bag falling off the seat.

Oh,

Is it?

Yeah.

Yeah,

I think it's interesting.

Like I said,

I do like challenges.

I've been everything from a commercial banker.

I was CEO of Regional Development Australia for the mid-north coast.

So I'm very much into industry,

Communities,

Social empowerment,

All sorts of different areas.

My passion has always been agriculture and I've never left it,

But I've gone off and done a lot of other things,

Which I think gives me a different set of eyes when I look at challenges,

Because I think often challenges are solved by looking at how they solve it in a completely different sector or a completely different industry.

And I would often use those skills,

The skills I've learned in banking or the skills I've learned in regional development.

You know,

I'm an ecological economist is what I would refer myself as.

That sounds cool.

It is cool.

It is cool because what that's about is putting a value on the environment.

And at the end of the day,

That's the most important thing to be able to do.

And it's not easy.

So I think all of these different career paths that I've played with and thoroughly enjoyed,

You know,

Each one I thought,

God,

It doesn't,

This is fascinating stuff.

It doesn't get better than this.

And then I landed at Southern Cross University running the Farming Together program.

Tell us about that.

Yeah,

Well,

You know,

That was a brave initiative.

Impossible timeframes,

Not enough money to achieve what it needed to achieve.

And yet we managed to,

You know,

Bring over 28,

000 farmers,

Fishers and foresters on a journey of collaboration on how to work together along their supply chains to improve not only the decision making,

But giving them some power back at the farm gate.

So improve their bottom line,

But looking at every project that the university backed,

Had to tick that box of being good for the environment,

Socially acceptable and good for communities.

And it also had to deliver profits back into farmers,

Fishers and foresters pockets.

And that's your triple bottom line approach.

So that was an amazing program,

Federally funded.

And the university along,

You know,

With a great team we had in place,

Ended up supporting farmer groups all over Australia.

So we covered literally every region and every industry,

Primary industry in the country with that program.

And from Farming Together was born the Regenerative Ag Alliance.

Tell us about that.

Is that a world first?

Exciting.

Do you think?

Yeah.

It's coupled with a world first in the last couple of years.

Tell us about that.

Well,

Nobody owns the term regenerative or regenerate or regen.

That's not something you can own.

The whole concept of ownership is,

You know,

That's,

It's just not real.

It's like nobody ever really owned the term sustainable.

And sustainable,

If you looked up the meaning of sustainable,

There was probably a hundred different definitions for what is sustainable,

And that'll be the case for regenerative.

But I just felt that after all the experience with Farming Together,

And interestingly enough,

When the Regenerative Ag Alliance was born,

It was born out of a conversation walking around the back blocks of the western suburbs of Sydney.

And I thought,

What's next?

You know,

We've got this great program,

We've done amazing things.

We're probably in for a change of government,

So they'll probably want a change of name.

Change something,

Of course.

Change the uniform.

Let's be honest.

And I thought,

Well,

You know,

This is,

The sustainability ship has sailed.

What young people want to sustain status quo?

How boring is that?

We don't want to just sustain.

We want to improve.

We want to repair.

We want it to be better.

And so it was just the obvious thing was to,

Let's regenerate.

Let's turn whatever we've,

You know,

Ignorantly done wrong in the past,

Let's now really focus on making it better for future generations so that my kids can still enjoy farming and their kids can still be there as well.

And society can eat healthy,

Nutritious food.

Because if we don't,

I think we're in a very fast,

Slippery slope to the bottom.

So what does the Alliance look like,

Lorraine?

What has it operating?

What's its charter?

Okay,

So the Alliance,

What does it look like?

It actually includes all the leading practitioners in the country and it's growing because there's more and more of them coming out,

Which is fantastic.

So the leading farming practitioners,

Those that have done it.

Not just those that talk about it,

But those that actually have experienced it,

Have been on the journey,

Have originally done it wrong and admitted they've made mistakes and learnt from those mistakes and really been their own researchers.

That's really a form of action research at its best.

So the leading practitioners in the country are involved with the Alliance,

The leading researchers,

Leading academics and teachers.

And we all come together and basically try and address some of the really complex issues that we're facing.

None of us think we have all the answers,

But together we sure give it a shake.

So that's what it's about.

We come together and we talk about those challenges and how we might be able to advise our decision makers,

For example,

On how to do things in a more proactive manner.

So what we've seen in this country is a lot of reactive policies.

And unfortunately that's the nature of politics.

And I don't think that's doing Australia any favours right now.

And I'm not pointing the finger at any particular party.

I think it's perhaps a problem with the system.

So we've seen reactive policies that really haven't served us that well.

In fact,

In some respects,

It's propped up bad farming practice.

It's Band-Aid stuff.

There's no point really giving money to farmers to build a hay shed if they've got no hay to put in the shed,

So to speak.

And there's farming communities that need a lot of help at the moment and I don't want to take away from that.

But it's good policy to actually be proactive in encouraging good practice.

That will actually help us survive into the future.

So that's one thing the Alliance does.

It certainly brings a lot of voices,

Respected voices together to try and shape the future of decision making in the country.

The other thing we're very focused on being located in a university and in a university that's prepared to be brave and at the cutting edge of what's going on on the planet is that we're very focused on education.

Because the agricultural education systems in this country really haven't changed track in the last 50 years.

And I'm not pointing the finger at any particular university.

It's just time to shake things up and really question the way we teach,

What we teach and how we go about it.

So thanks to Southern Cross being quite open minded and like I said brave to go down that path.

We do have the first Bachelor of Science in Regenerative Agriculture in the world.

And from there now we're focusing on post-grad qualifications and even diplomas to help some of these ag colleges that unfortunately all over the country were closed down years ago.

And that's probably the biggest mistake we ever made because now who's going to farm?

And Lorraine you've got 80 sign ups already I believe and it's kicking off next month.

Well what we have.

It's a pretty positive start.

Well it's actually more than that Charlie because what we have is we've got.

Sorry just for the listeners and the watchers.

We had to move inside half an hour ago before we started because of the rain and then the thunder so you are in the thick of it here.

It hasn't rained for 10 or 15 minutes now.

That's what it is.

That's not sound effects folks.

That's the sound of evil.

That's real.

That's real.

That's real good stuff.

I can't remember what the question was now.

We were talking about the degree and 80 sign ups.

So what we actually have is we've had 180 sign ups in the Bachelor of Science and they're still trying to pick their subjects.

So 80 of those have actually chosen their regen subjects and we're working our way through the rest to actually choose the subjects that they want to study.

And I must say it hasn't hit UAC yet so it hasn't hit the school system and nor did it make the course offerings in time.

So this has got to be probably the fastest degree known to man to ever get established at a university.

You were talking about it in April and May last year.

You got up within six months you was up and running.

And I think that's just because the need was so great.

The sense of urgency in the farming communities was just overwhelming and there was no time to waste.

So really it's almost like,

I don't know how would you put it,

It's like flying a 747 while you're still building the engine at times.

But that's what's great about it because it brings in all of that expertise from those practicing practitioners on their farms listening to real farmers doing incredible stuff and seeing the evidence so students can see the evidence for themselves.

So are we field trips and case studies?

Yeah residential schools on different properties and farms with those leading practitioners,

With the Charlie Massey's,

With the Terry McCoskers,

With yourself.

And yes we'll be going to Burrawah and Braidwood.

David Marsha's down there.

You'll probably go and see David.

We'll probably see the Maloontoots and all of those guys.

They all play a really important part in the story.

But what's vitally important because we are a university is that it is all underpinned by good science.

And in some cases it's an emerging science,

It's an emerging area of research.

The research will be trying to catch up and research doesn't happen quickly.

But this has to have really good solid peer reviewed work behind it by leading academics as well.

So the discussions are rich and I think that's the sweet spot.

You bring practice together with researchers and teachers and you've got something special.

And the good news is there's no agenda either.

In terms of we understand the benefits,

We're understanding them more and more.

We heard a lot of amazing stuff from Christine Jones today about soil.

And a lot of people would say that some universities study research for the benefit of a particular industry.

So the good news is that I feel that this course is a transparent industry with transparent research that is really looking for the best practice in this new,

I shouldn't say new agriculture because it's actually old agriculture isn't it,

But it's a breath of fresh air.

Lorraine I want to go back to the bushfires.

Devastating across the eastern seaboard and Western Australia as well and South Australia there was a lot of fires everywhere,

It was quite widespread.

You were at the coal face so to speak.

What do you think we as a nation learnt from the fires?

Did we learn anything,

Urban and farming,

The people who suffered?

And if they did,

What do you think they learnt?

What maybe should we have learnt?

I think it was a massive electric shock actually.

I think it,

Geez,

How do you say this,

But in some respects it almost takes a catastrophe like that to wake decision makers up.

I'm not sure if they're 100% awake just yet,

But it's,

Not wanting to be a pessimist because I'm not,

I'm an absolute optimist,

But I don't think we're out of this yet.

We've copped it all,

Haven't we?

We've had these extended dry periods when we're expecting that that's not a dry time for us.

We've had,

So we've had drought,

We've had horrendously hot fires that just couldn't even be controlled.

And now floods,

We've got the heavy rainfall and I'm just waiting on the locust plague and we're just about at the last chapter of the Bible really.

The pestilence is on the way.

Yeah,

There is a chapter that talks about this stuff.

However,

What that does is,

What this is is chaos theory unfolding and out of chaos comes emerging systems and change.

And there's a lot of science behind this stuff and ecology leads the way when it comes to understanding the emerging theories that come from chaos theory.

So good will come out of this.

It will just be a really rocky journey to get there,

But I think we'll get there.

And I've got a lot of faith in future generations and even in the young people that I work with now because they get it.

And like I said,

They're not happy with sustaining what they've been handed.

They want us to fix it and I think we have a role to get it right for them.

And not fight it,

Just go with it.

Take that step,

One step at a time,

But in my case,

Please step quite fast because otherwise we will run out of time.

And yeah,

We do,

We need to wake up to the big electric shock that we've just had and react to that in a way that is going to protect the future.

I think it's presented a massive opportunity.

I guess my thinking has been,

There's an opportunity for this not to happen again in 15 or 20 years time.

I don't know,

I don't have the answers or the methods,

But I just think there's,

That could be a motivating factor that we can,

I think we can avoid this in many ways from happening again because we certainly don't want it.

If we learn by it.

That's exactly it.

If we learn by it.

Because there's no point having short memories.

We can't keep making the same mistakes.

That's not going to serve us well.

And I guess you talk about what the charter is of the Regen Ag Alliance.

Well,

You know,

I've talked about being able to influence those policy decisions and being able to offer new educational products that actually meet the needs of future farmers.

But the third very important aspect to all of this is the ongoing research that has to happen.

And again,

What we've done at Southern Cross is we've,

You know,

The challenges that farmers face have come to us and farmers have asked us to help them to solve these challenges.

So it's very grassroots driven research that we're now undertaking.

We're trying to help them to solve some of these really complex issues we're facing.

And by putting our top level researchers and our students together with practitioners and farmers,

It takes all of that to solve these issues.

And the constant research that has to go on in all of these spaces to get us there is another focus area for the Alliance.

Lorraine,

Switching to the world,

What do you think,

What role do you think Australia might be playing or could play on the world stage?

Is it,

Has it a role to play?

Is it doing it?

Is it sort of what,

What do you think the sense of other countries is of what we're doing here?

Oh boy,

I think we're an amazing case study for the world.

I mean,

Let's face it,

In a couple of hundred years,

We've nearly stuffed our whole country.

That's interesting.

So they're all watching,

All eyes are on us now.

So here we are,

White civilisation has come in and in 200 years,

You know,

We haven't really,

We haven't done our country many favours.

But it hasn't been on purpose.

You know,

We came here,

We bought in European farming systems.

Our soils are the oldest soils in the world.

We don't and shouldn't farm the way Europe farms because we need to farm the Australian way.

We needed to listen to Indigenous elders while the knowledge was still there.

And we didn't.

So we've made some massive mistakes.

Let's make no bones about that.

So the world is watching us.

The world knows Australia,

I mean,

The world watched Australia burn.

I mean,

It was on every news in every country of the world.

And no wonder it affected our tourism sector,

Because literally the world thought the whole country was on fire.

And you know,

There was times for me when I'm on the North Coast and in the Northern Table is that I felt the whole world was,

You know,

The whole country was on fire as well.

And so they're now watching,

Well,

What is Australia going to do?

You know,

Are they going to start to get serious about,

For instance,

Reducing our greenhouse emissions,

Meeting our Paris agreements?

So we don't want to look like fools,

But we possibly could if we don't get serious about some of the actions we need to take.

And so it's,

We're already on the world stage of having a whole heap of issues to deal with.

What's important now is how we deal with those issues and how serious we get about making sure we become leaders in the space,

Not idiots.

If you were Lorraine Gordon,

You've just been anointed,

You're now the Prime Minister.

I know.

Heaven for you.

That'd be fun.

I just felt that wasn't thunder that you just heard.

That's like about 100 Australians that know me really well that just a shiver went up the back of their spine.

Come on,

You didn't want me to lunch in the big house.

So what would you do?

What would be the first,

What would you do in the first 100 days?

Listen to the scientists.

That would be the first thing.

I think I'd bring the many perspectives in those,

The proven ones,

The ones that have actually know what they're talking about.

The science deniers,

I just,

I find them completely bemusing at times.

Science has been telling us this for a long time,

What was going to happen and where we were heading.

It's only a fool that doesn't at least open their mind to listen to this stuff and those that know what they're talking about.

It's really important,

I think,

Particularly for politicians that they actually get the right advice.

The thing I do notice is that a lot of the so-called advisors,

Straight out of university wanting to have a political career is not really a good recipe for solving complex issues.

So it's really important to get good advice.

Any good business person would surround themselves with their knowledge gaps,

People that can actually help them on that journey to have a successful business.

Surround yourself with people smarter than you.

Absolutely.

If you're the smartest person in the room,

You're in the wrong room.

And if you're employing people that aren't smarter than yourself,

You're pretty stupid.

So I've got a fantastic team at Southern Cross Uni.

I've got a fantastic team in my own company.

They've been with me for a long time.

And I turn to them for advice because you can't know all things.

Nobody can know all things.

That's the first.

You talk about how would you run a country,

Whether you need to surround yourself with smart people that know what they're talking about.

That's a really good start.

And you need to look long term.

It's about long term vision.

Not about getting elected in the next three years.

It's about what's best in the long term for communities and for the environment and for the country.

So we don't tend to,

We have that very short term focus on everything.

And that's killing us.

You can't achieve anything in a three year turnaround because we spend one year in election mode.

So you've only got then two years.

You've got six months to sort out.

So you've actually only got a year and a half to actually do anything.

Do anything,

Yeah.

So it's,

Yeah,

I mean the system's broken,

Let's face it.

And do you think Lorraine,

That,

How can people be the most effective to contribute to,

I'm sort of generalising,

Calling it a regenerative agriculture movement.

I mean it includes,

You know,

Reducing carbon levels.

It includes human health.

There's so many different things.

I mean what can people do?

Because a lot of people say we need to change legislation first and then things will happen.

Other people say,

Well no,

You've actually just got to go out and do it.

And other people say,

Well no,

You've got to do the research.

So is there a sort of a particular effective way that,

Whether we're talking about urban people or we're talking about farmers.

Well I don't think government will lead the way in this.

I think that's not going to happen.

I think the consumer is king.

I mean I come from tourism,

The consumer is king.

The ego eaters,

You're the king.

So when the consumer starts to be really informed and aware of how food is produced,

And I'm not,

You've got to be very careful that,

You know,

They don't come from a position of ignorance either,

You know.

Because for instance,

Hooved animals have a huge role to play.

Crossfed hooved animals have a huge role to play in sequestering carbon and reducing greenhouse emissions and bringing these temperatures down.

You know,

There are magic what they can do.

If the grazing systems are done right,

So that we're regenerating pastures and increasing photosynthesis and encouraging that root growth and that the microbes in the soil to do their magic.

Without those hooved animals in a grazing environment,

It's pretty bloody hard to do without,

You know,

As good grazing systems.

And I'm not talking about set stocking here.

And I don't want to sort of get into a debate about intensive animal farming as against free range.

But you know,

There are differences.

So as a consumer,

Don't sit there and say,

Well,

You know,

I'll become a vegan or a vegetarian because livestock production is bad.

That's coming from a point of ignorance,

Because not all livestock production is bad.

So learn about the different ways your food is produced,

Because the Omega-3s,

The levels of Omega-3s in grass fed beef are equivalent to that of fish.

And the consumer doesn't know that.

So you know,

You've got this massive,

You know,

The nutritional value,

For instance,

Of grass fed beef is extremely high.

But that message doesn't get through.

And the co-benefit of that hooved animal with pastures and regenerative practice is something that consumers don't understand either.

And so that's sad.

I've got a whole education process to go through here.

And yeah,

Be careful of stuff that you read or that you watch on the TV or that you hear.

You know,

Is it actually good academic literature or is it just someone's opinion that's doing a blog that actually has no science behind it whatsoever?

So you know,

We hear figures,

For instance,

And it's a bit of a,

It becomes a sore spot with me.

I hear these figures banded around about,

You know,

The emissions that agriculture causes.

Well,

Can I just say that,

You know,

At the farm gate,

It's actually only 10 to 12 percent.

But you hear stuff out there all the way up to,

You know,

27 percent,

40.

You see this stuff and you go,

Well,

Where's the science behind that?

And where did you get these percentages from?

Because it's actually,

You know,

There's no truth in this stuff.

It's just somehow this percentage has been plucked out of in air and there is no science behind that.

So at the farm gate,

You know,

The emissions are really at that 12 percent level.

And that's based on science.

And in the livestock industry,

We can actually reduce those methane levels through our practices.

So good grazing practice,

Mixed species,

Great new science inventions such as our Red Sea weed products and stuff like that,

That's coming along hard and fast can reduce that down to nothing.

So I guess the consumer needs to get informed using quality science as the backdrop to do that.

Just on the seaweed,

I was talking to a fellow last night at a university.

I did a thesis on the use of seaweed extracts and growing tomatoes.

Fascinating stuff,

Lorraine.

But funnily enough,

The seaweed stuff keeps on coming back to me over all these years.

And I was chatting with a guy last night and he has a business.

I'm not sure if I can name the business yet,

But he's working on a specific species of seaweed.

The tests have been doing,

Showing that there's a 20 percent improvement in feed conversion essentially.

So there's a productivity gain and there's also a natural process that takes place in the gut when the seaweed is eaten,

Just 30 grams a day,

Reduces methane significantly.

Ninety percent,

Shall we?

Is that 90 percent?

Get out of here.

And it's an enzyme.

It's just an enzyme.

It's not the whole.

.

.

It's getting that enzyme out of the seaweed is the tricky bit.

But look,

We've got great scientists working on this right now.

They're nearly there.

At SEU?

SEU,

Yeah,

Marine Science Center active in the space.

CSIRO is active in the space.

So we're all talking,

We're all working together.

That problem will be solved.

So I guess that's the thing.

The debate is interesting,

But just be careful where you're getting your knowledge sources or who your knowledge source is,

I guess.

And also as farmers,

We get a lot of our knowledge and experience from experience,

Don't we?

We have to.

.

.

It's only a mistake if you do it twice.

You're going to make a lot of,

I guess,

Mistakes.

What any.

.

.

Have you made mistakes on your own?

Oh,

I've made no mistakes.

Yeah.

It's only rigid.

What level do you want to talk at?

I'm not talking about in the kitchen when you burnt the souffle or something.

That's just a laugh.

I guess I see farmers,

We are the ultimate in action research,

Aren't we?

Action research.

That's what I call it.

I just call all these stuff ups and mistakes.

It's just action research at play,

Really,

Isn't it?

It's like,

Well,

Hell,

That didn't work.

Go this way,

Try this one.

And it is.

And that's what it's all about.

I guess the only difference is farmers don't write an academic paper every time they learn something.

They pass the knowledge on to each other.

And that's important too.

But I think now we're in a period of incredible reflection and action research is taking place very fast.

So I guess my role is to ensure that quality research backs up where it's all heading,

That we deliver state of the art educational products and meet the needs of our future students and equip them to be able to solve these complex problems themselves.

Teach them to think.

Remember the days when education was actually helping you to think for yourself,

Not just gobble up textbooks of information and spit it out at the other end and pass exams,

But actually really navel gaze and think about what the hell's going on here.

It gets back to that non-prescriptive sort of mentality,

Isn't it?

The success is the failures,

The try this and don't do that.

That's right.

And the fact is we don't have all the answers.

I'm not sure we ever will.

That's a crazy thought.

But it's a hell of a fun journey finding out how we can do things better.

So it's a continuous learning spiral.

Just because the science isn't always there doesn't mean we shouldn't research and find out what's going on.

That's how we ended up moving from candles to light bulbs and from the horse and cart to the automobile,

I guess,

In and otherwise it wouldn't have happened.

Just because we don't have the science behind something doesn't mean we shouldn't go and research and find out what's going on.

Talking about research,

The guys who are mire grazing here and will not certainly,

I guess you'd call a demonstration of the use of the mire grazing program,

Which is essentially a program which helps graziers monitor their,

Will help feed budgeting monitor their grazing use and grazing planning,

Which is a fantastic tool.

Great use of technology that I think is a really useful use of technology.

So the guys here today will not have done an amazing job of demonstrating that and putting together,

As you just mentioned,

Lorraine,

People who are very smart.

Is that Lorraine?

They're very smart.

They've got so much wisdom and information to impart and we've had a wonderful day.

Lorraine,

Before we go,

As the rain falls down,

I've got to ask you always conjecture about the definition of regenerative agriculture.

Is there such a thing?

No,

I don't believe there is.

I think it means different things to different people.

There's lots of great definitions and some will resonate more with some than others.

I always say it's leaving the landscape and your environment in a better state than you found it.

That's what fits with me.

But there's lots of definitions and I really think it depends on where somebody is at the time on how they want to describe what Regen Ag is really about to them.

Where they are on their journey.

On their journey,

Yeah.

Well,

Lorraine,

You've left me in a better state than when you found me.

Oh,

So please tell me.

53 minutes ago.

We've been talking for 53 minutes.

Thank you so much.

Pleasure.

I'm really interested and I'm very keen to follow and be involved in the regenerative agriculture course at Southern Cross University.

So many wonderful things happening.

So many good people involved.

And thank you for your time.

Pleasure,

Charlie.

Thank you.

Thank you if we need to.

The big guy for the rain that's falling again.

And there's nothing like being in a field day,

Is there?

Like I just,

I had about 500 emails I hadn't got to by last night and I just thought,

Damn it,

I just need to go and be with farmers,

Kicking the dirt,

Just sharing knowledge and finding out where everyone's at.

And I think that's what probably both of us,

We get a lot of joy out of that.

So much joy.

And thank you for the joy you've given us.

And our listeners today,

Lorraine,

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much.

Well what a wonderful interview there with Lorraine.

Always been an inspiration to me,

Just her can-do attitude and always good fun chatting with Lorraine.

Our next episode is with one of my favourites,

David Marsh.

He is a burrower farmer,

Only 15 minutes from from Hanaminau here,

A burrower,

And has been a mentor of mine for some years now.

Always looked up to David.

Even when we were both sort of conventional farming,

He always did a pretty good job,

I thought so.

He's certainly been one of my,

I guess one of my inspirations,

I have to say.

So we spoke very candidly about his history,

How he got to be where he is now in terms of his regenerative farming approach,

His holistic farm management.

And in Allendale,

Where we did the interview,

Was where I started,

I guess a lot of my interviews on YouTube.

Just chatting with David in the paddock about dung beetles,

Cattle,

Weather,

Rain,

Grass.

Now don't forget to subscribe,

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Do all those wonderful things.

The more people we get listening to this podcast,

The more we will get the message out there.

And I think that is a pretty important and compelling thing for us all to do.

And also a big shout out to Landcare Australia for their support in helping put together this podcast,

This first series of the Regenerative Journey.

Catch up with you all next week.

For more episode information,

Please head over to www.

Charleyharnett.

Com.

Au.

This podcast is produced by Rhys Jones at Yeager Media.

And as the recipient of the Bob Hawke Landcare Award,

Charlie would like to thank Landcare Australia for their support in the creation of this first series of the Regenerative Journey.

Thank you.