Why Risk Life To Feel Alive?

Excerpted from Dharma Dialogues with Catherine Ingram. Recorded in Lennox Head, Australia in July 2018. From the opening talk: "I have been watching this news story about the young boys in the cave in Thailand with their 25-year old coach, having gone on an adventure in a rather dangerous circumstance, and obviously with great naivety.”

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep.

I'm your host,

Katherine Ingram.

The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues held in Lenox Head,

Australia in July of 2018.

It's called Why Risk Life to Feel Alive?

I've been watching this news story about the young boys in the cave in Thailand with their 25-year-old coach having gone on an adventure in a rather dangerous circumstance and obviously with great naivete and no doubt at this point quite a lot of regret.

As anyone who's following the story knows,

They haven't been rescued yet.

It's a very dangerous operation.

Already one Navy SEAL has lost his life in this project.

And of course one's heart breaks.

I mean there's of course at this time on earth there's so many millions of sorrowful stories but somehow this one is very captivating for the world.

The world is watching.

So it brings up for me a theme I've considered many,

Many,

Many times which has to do with risk-taking and the desire for greater adventure.

And I suspect that a lot of times that is driven by people having a greater sense of aliveness,

Wanting to feel in a more intense way,

Wanting a sense of aliveness.

And this is of course reported by many people who do such things,

Jump out of planes and do various kinds of things that are inherently risky.

But what they report often is just how alive they felt in these circumstances.

Now from my point of view,

Not being a physical risk-taker,

I would say I'm a risk-taker in other ways but not so much a risk-taker physically.

So for me I've always been a little bewildered by the calculations people are making that for a few minutes of this so-called enhanced aliveness they would actually risk their lives.

And it always seemed a strange cost benefit to me.

Right?

It always just seemed somehow off.

But even if,

Let's grant them,

Let's say that some people would say back to me as my former boyfriend from long ago said to me once or twice when I challenged him on his constant risk-taking that his life wouldn't be worth living to him if he didn't have those kinds of moments of aliveness.

Okay,

Let's grant someone that rationale.

However,

There's one more calculation that has to be included.

And that is the loss to the people who love you.

So you're not just risking your life in a vacuum.

You're also risking your life and causing potential terrible loss for all the people who love you.

That's another part of the calculation that I feel needs to be considered.

And I think that it's something that is,

That when one is quiet enough you begin to be very sensitive to all the ways your life is affecting others,

Whether positively or negatively.

You just become more sensitive to that.

Not such that it would be paralyzing,

But just that it's considered.

Right?

So the other piece of this that I've spoken a lot about before is,

First of all,

One can feel a great sense of aliveness just through your own noticing that you're alive.

Right?

That it doesn't have to be such,

It doesn't have to be this extreme enhancement.

It can simply be the subtleties of your own existence and how beautiful that becomes and how the mind can start to really saturate itself in that experience rather than in this breathless,

You know,

Life and death circumstance.

Sure you might feel very intensely alive and awake in those circumstances,

But also perhaps very scared,

Agitated in various ways.

So that's one piece of it,

That the aliveness is available through your own awareness,

Through your own sensing,

Through your own love of the taste of this.

The other part of this consideration that I've been thinking about is that perhaps there are things one just has to forego for the greater good.

Right?

That you don't get to do all the things you would love to do or feel more alive doing because it would affect too many other people for you to take that kind of risk.

To all my way of saying that in this deepening sensitivity there's a greater context that one is always considering the greater good.

How's my life?

How is my life best used?

Right?

In the most loving way.

So as I just mentioned,

I used to have,

I used to be around a lot of people who lived on those kinds of edges physically.

And so I've had this conversation a lot in the past.

And I never really,

I never really agreed with the,

I mean I understand that we're built differently,

That people are built differently and that they have different desires and needs than say I would have.

But I always thought that this other calculation was missing.

That you don't just risk your own precious life so willy-nilly just to have some high experiences.

You don't do that not only for yourself but for all the people who love you.

So it's interesting when you said about the Thai children and I just thought,

Wow,

That's why I came today because they were really top of my list today thinking about them reading in the newspaper yesterday morning about where they're trapped and looking at how do they get out.

It really is.

And it just hit me really in the heart and I've just felt such a flood of emotion and compassion,

Empathy,

Whatever for their families and for those.

And I could just picture those beautiful little children and it really hurt me.

And I thought,

Well,

That's big.

And I think probably because I've been feeling quite emotional lately anyway,

It really,

Really struck my heart.

I think a lot of people in the world are feeling this of all the many stories that are going on in the world,

This one somehow.

Yeah,

It brought up such an intense feeling within my whole body really of how,

What it made me feel,

I was very grateful for my life and actually the small things that are going on.

And actually even my husband said something,

Makes you feel he was having trouble with the website or something.

And he said,

Oh,

It makes trouble with a website,

Insignificant first world problems compared to something,

A tragedy like this,

Which when we pray for a miracle that they get out,

It doesn't look very good,

Does it?

It doesn't look easy,

That's for sure.

And we'll see what happens.

But I also feel tremendous compassion for the 25 year old leader who took them in there and who truly seems like a beautiful being in that before they knew they were being rescued,

He gave up his own food rations.

So he's actually quite weak,

Even though now they're being fed and everything.

But also apparently he had been a Buddhist monk.

And so he'd been during the days before they were found,

He was teaching them meditation as they're in this cave,

Not knowing if they're ever going to be found.

And so the whole thing has this kind of horrific quality.

And yet in the discovery of them,

They don't seem like they've gone crazy or anything.

It seems like somehow they maintained sanity,

Which is a great thing to know.

It reminds me of something that Thich Nhat Hanh had said,

Which was,

If you're in a boat and the boat gets a leak,

Springs a leak,

If everyone panics,

Then for sure you're going to die.

But if one person stays steady,

That steadiness can spread through the rest such that you have a chance of saving yourselves.

Now,

That may not come to be in this case in that,

You know,

They're in a race against both time and nature,

The rains and time because of the increased carbon monoxide in the cave.

And,

You know,

It's when you're up against time and nature,

It's very hard to win that one.

So we'll see if this can be in any way resolved.

But I think that the heartbreak and why it's captured,

You know,

The world's attention is this sense of,

You know,

They went on a kind of a lark and ended up in this incredible dark circumstance,

Right?

And they're young and it's like this innocence,

Right?

This innocence and this adventure combined to land them in this circumstance,

You know.

Of course,

The young trainer or whoever he was,

He wouldn't have been thinking that they were going to get into some sort of tragedy.

Of course not.

How must he be feeling?

See,

I'm feeling so closely.

What must he be feeling now?

Oh,

Yes.

He would be devastated.

Right.

And in his country,

I saw one of the headlines that said hero or zero,

Meaning half the people are seeing him as a hero,

But some people are blaming him for the circumstance.

And,

You know,

And I'm sure that the family of the diver who died,

They're not so thrilled with the whole circumstance.

You know,

It's like all of it is very like,

You know,

Shakespearean or something,

You know,

Just huge emotional components to it.

His actions have created that ripple,

You know,

Into this room now with us and what you were saying about how taking huge risks for an adrenaline rush is,

This is.

.

.

Right,

This isn't the only time that's happened,

Right?

No.

The person I was referring to,

By the way,

That I had lived with those years ago,

This big risk taker and all of his friends were risk takers.

He died in an accident a couple of years ago.

And,

You know,

It's,

It's,

And then that has rippled out a lot of sadness in the world because of that,

You know,

So,

Yeah,

It's very different than just dying a natural death,

Getting a disease and dying and so on,

You know.

So yes,

It's those kinds of considerations.

And it comes down to,

Yeah,

Maybe there's certain things you're not going to do because they're dangerous.

And even if you're the one who wants to do them,

You have to think about your people or your animals,

Whoever you're connected to,

You know.

But humans are full of folly.

There is so much that can be shared on that theme with the boys.

I mean,

Everyone is sharing about it.

On the theme of the sense of aliveness that everyone is seeking in some way and perhaps looking outside to try and find it as we all do.

I mean,

So many of the things that we find ourselves chasing after are somehow just for that sense of the thrill of the adventure of it.

And I just find it again and again so bizarre to watch how I go searching for that feeling of aliveness and all the things that I do in being so caught up actually numbs me to that innate sense of aliveness that's there and how all the invitations to tune into that well of aliveness,

Whether it be a certain emotional flare or contraction or place in my body that I'm not paying attention to,

That just to take the moment to go into that and come to the source of that is actually where that sense of aliveness is,

Where it has no location,

But is just so present that it's not even contained seemingly in the body,

That it's just in taking that moment to fall into it is this incredible current of aliveness that is always.

And we just don't even notice it when we're busy looking for it somewhere else,

Or numbing ourselves out to the part of that spectrum that we don't want to feel or don't want to give the time for.

So actually this sense of aliveness for me has become more about the willingness to receive and to be present,

To feel it.

And it is a receiving.

Yeah.

It's very subtle shift of attention.

Yes.

It's a subtle shift that makes a huge difference.

Huge difference.

Yeah.

And that's what I was referring to about how then you start to tune into the subtleties of feeling alive,

Right?

And when you're going that direction,

Which is downstream,

There's just endless delights,

Right?

You just start little things,

Like the way the light is playing on the leaves.

I mean,

Every little thing,

You start to be open much more to those.

And that's where the real,

From my way of seeing,

That's where the real richness of life is.

It's in the subtlety.

It's in the simple beingness,

And that that sparkles in a beautiful way and it keeps you very,

Very attuned to the lightness of your steps here,

Right?

So that you're not just.

.

.

But you know,

The culture,

You talked about the externality project,

The cultures,

The first world cultures are in a big gimme,

Gimme,

More and more,

More and more excitement.

Everything is pounding and fast,

Right?

It's just the opposite direction.

The real travesty of it is that even in the inclination to be present and to tune into that,

It does always end up in that beautiful stream,

But it doesn't always first appear to be.

And so often it's that first glance where there's some struggle or confusion or pain or that's just not being addressed.

But my experience is that every time,

Every time that it's given attention is that it opens up into this.

It's always going to end up coming back to that stream of aliveness.

Yeah.

Well,

Certainly with the kind of attention that you would put on it.

Yes.

But I think a lot of people are afflicted with.

.

.

There's some way in which the conditioning is so powerful or the story about what they need for feeling alive is so intense that their attention just,

It almost never touches on that simplicity.

Maybe not until the very end.

I've often considered what so many people must have faced in the last moments where the realization might be there.

Wow.

Where you're realizing these are the last moments of being.

What was all that struggle about?

What was I chasing all that time?

What was missing did I think?

And from that vantage point,

As I've said so many times,

Your every boring or difficult day might look pretty good.

Like your every struggle,

All the things you thought were so horrible or whatever,

From those moments,

How poignant would it look?

So again,

All of these reflections throw you into.

.

.

In fact,

I was just,

As you were speaking,

For some reason,

I was tuning into the boys again and thinking if they get out or if any of them get out,

How absolutely clear the picture will be,

At least for a while.

And probably what will be most vivid for them in that ramped up,

Intense survival sense of aliveness is that they were there for each other.

Yes.

Big time.

Yes.

They have a few things going for them in that they were sort of like little elite athletes and also that they were already a team,

So they already knew each other and were friends.

So I was comforted by that.

Yeah,

It's all very amazing to step back for one second and look at the picture,

Which is open to see,

But how few people really do that.

People are just rolling along in their conditioned mind,

In their conditioned habits,

And just on like a treadmill of just nonsense in most cases.

Yeah,

And I see it in my own mind every day.

I just wish I could have that little alert button that goes,

Spin out,

Return to the moment.

I need that one flashing just on the inner screen.

And I guess it also really puts you in touch with what matters most.

I mean,

I know those boys are really thinking what they're wanting to convey the most,

It seems,

And the messages that they're sending out is for their parents not to worry about that.

I know.

I know.

Yes.

And the kind of food that they miss.

Yes.

And now they've been offered to go to the World Cup if they get out.

I mean,

That's something to look forward to.

It is.

But I think just this sense of like what really matters.

Yes,

What really matters.

I'm sure what they really are looking forward to is being in the arms of their loved ones,

You know.

And everything is forgiven,

You know,

Everything,

Everything,

You know.

Oh,

Yes,

Exactly.

Yeah.

Everything is forgiven.

Yeah.

I have with the boys in Thailand,

I also find it really interesting.

I think part of why it is able to capture so many people is because it's apolitical.

Yes.

And there's so many people that rush to rush in to help from all corners of the world.

Yes.

And working alongside each other.

And as you were talking initially about the rush of the adrenaline and stuff,

I think quite a few of the rescue workers there are there because of that rush.

Yes,

Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they were trained in the first place because of that.

Yes,

You definitely want one of those guys around if you're in trouble.

Yes.

Yeah.

And you probably don't want to be the relatives of those people either,

You know.

No,

No.

Yeah.

I mean,

We both know someone who's got a brother in a Navy Seal.

Yeah.

And that is hard for the family because it is such a risky environment.

Risky business,

Yeah.

But in a way,

Thank God that they are there and all the SES people here in Australia and that kind of stuff.

But it's that same thing.

It's,

I guess,

The rush.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But also these people,

I was contemplating this just yesterday or this morning,

They must have such a sense of purpose being there and helping out.

And I,

In a very long ago past life,

Was a trainee nurse and that was one of my drives that I made a difference in other people's lives.

Yes.

Yes.

I think that,

You know,

In that circumstance,

As you're saying,

The camaraderie so transcends all personal problems.

Yes.

And,

You know,

It's like you were saying too that all the little first world annoyances,

You know,

Our various tech problems and all that is long faded in a circumstance like that.

Yeah.

And it puts your personal life on hold and it's perfectly okay because you're there for a greater purpose.

Yes.

And I would even say,

I think sometimes people who do throw themselves into those circumstances as rescuers and so on,

Perhaps one of the joys of that kind of job is that you don't have any time for self-referencing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know,

You get a break from your from your own self.

From your own drama.

Yeah.

From your own drama.

Yeah.

You get a different,

You watch a different movie and yeah.

Yeah.

So it's,

It's,

I mean,

I think it's,

It's been going on for as long as humans have been conscious beings.

Very much so.

But it's,

It's in a way fascinating to watch.

And of course everyone hopes that these boys in the coach come out alive and everyone else as well.

Yes,

Indeed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's,

It's,

It's a microcosm that's exposed to the whole world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But back to the point about when there is a dedication to living much more in presence and in simplicity of being.

And those who we,

We know tend to live on that frequency more historically.

They don't tend to be people who,

You know,

Jump out of airplanes and things.

You know,

It just doesn't seem to be many cases of it.

There may be.

I just don't know any.

And of the people I know,

You know,

Of the people I know who I feel are much more living in that type of sensitivity,

I don't really see them being inclined to do things like that.

I'm not putting it down in and of itself.

You know,

People who have that desire and that passion,

What can you do?

They're going to play it out.

And probably a lot of them have a grand old time and don't die.

You know?

It's more just,

I just feel that coming to this sense of aliveness with a much more nuanced kind of awareness would not require that kind of behavior.

You think?

Yeah,

I agree.

I must be the only person in the room that doesn't know about this.

Oh.

But are you getting a sense of it?

I'm definitely getting a sense of it.

And I did have my hand up for something that you were saying,

But now I can't really remember exactly what it is.

But it's something around,

It's more around what you were saying about the people that are drawn to do the work that they do,

That with people,

You know,

The fireys,

All of these rescue people that have that sense that,

So somewhere in those people,

They can be called to be an ambulance driver and live there.

And they,

In fact,

They need that sort of thing to keep them going.

And I also really hear my brother-in-law has all his life been doing these risky things.

And my sister can't stop him from doing it,

You know?

And in the end,

She said to me,

She just surrendered to it.

She made sure that his insurance,

His life insurance was,

You know,

And basically said to him,

You can do whatever you want as long as when,

If you die as a result of this,

I have financial means and understand that obviously I'm going to be devastated and it's going to have a big impact on me.

But she just decided in the end.

And he's had countless accidents.

And you know,

It's been quite incredible to watch this.

And I have another friend also who said to me one time,

He said that if he was injured,

That and found himself in a wheelchair,

He'd take up adventure sports in the wheelchair,

You know,

Like,

I mean,

Who I like to think of myself as calm and not going,

I don't want to do those sort of things.

In my youth,

I might've done a few sort of flying foxes and things like this,

But I did have that moment,

Which I shared last week of the idea of in the plane that if I had actually died in that moment,

It would have been like over,

Like right there,

Like now,

Like just then in that moment I was,

And I'm wondering whether for some people that could be as comforting to them to die in that full,

The full aliveness of adrenaline,

Then to the comfort of me feeling like I could die in my sleep,

You know,

In that,

Or in a moment in nature when I'm feeling completely calm and I'm kind of celebrating the diversity of thought and life here.

You know,

And feeling,

When I worked for a couple of years for a crisis line,

I listened to a lot of people in crisis and I remember at the beginning of that feeling that it was,

Even though feeling kind of it was wrong to take your life,

I did,

I definitely had that feeling that that was a bad and wrong thing to do and how inconsiderate these people were being to the people that were left behind.

And I assume you mean people who were basically going through some sort of psychological depression or something,

Not people necessarily who are terminally ill.

That's correct.

People who were going to,

Yeah,

It just,

In a crisis situation through to whatever it was,

Yes,

But not terminally ill people.

Well,

Although some people were in pain who definitely rang while their medications kicked in because they wanted to kill themselves before because that's in so much pain.

But at the end of that two years,

I found myself in a place much more of just compassion towards each person and actually going,

I could allow you to be free to choose whatever you want to do and not to make it wrong if you choose that.

Beautiful,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

And I'm actually saying that also about this circumstance.

Like I said,

I'm not criticizing,

People are as they are.

They,

You know,

Each one gets to be themselves.

I'm just pointing out that I'm just not sure all the calculations have been carefully considered and that I'm proposing that with greater sensitivity,

You know,

One is just aware of the ripples of one's own life and decisions.

And you may still choose to make them.

You may,

Like your brother-in-law,

You know,

Is that what,

He's a brother-in-law?

Yes.

Yes.

You know,

And your sister has to accommodate it and she gets to choose that as well.

Yeah.

So all of it,

You know,

One surrenders to the truth of a situation.

I just have a sense that as the deepening happens and as the experience of being becomes sweeter,

Then not a lot is needed.

I mean,

We do chase about and get a few things that we like and all of that's well and good.

But if we don't get them,

If we don't get to have the experience that we were looking for,

The situation or the vacation or whatever it is,

You just fall back on your usual sweet taste of being,

Right?

I completely agree with that and I think that's,

I think I hope that we're moving more towards that,

More towards peace and calm and all is forgiven,

You know,

That all is forgiven.

You know,

Imagine if we could forgive everything and everybody that is ever done in a thing,

You know,

That the space that would be created,

It would be a space of peace and calm and of not wanting to chase after the,

You know,

We wouldn't need that because we'd be all loving each other and caring for each other.

It's such a,

Yeah,

I.

.

.

That would be nice.

It would be.

It would be,

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's,

I think it's very interesting times.

Yes,

Yes it is.

Yeah.

So we're missing the other side of the argument because we need an adrenaline junkie to tell us what he or she feels when they're pursuing these extreme sports or a firefighter or an ambulance driver,

Anyone who,

We need all those kind of services too to rescue us.

When we're in those kinds of extreme circumstances.

And so,

You know,

Our policemen,

People in the armed forces,

Are those people just pursuing their adrenaline rush in a profession rather than,

You know,

Other people that just do extreme sports?

So it would be really good to hear the other side of the argument.

Well,

Like I said,

I have,

I used to be in a whole little community because of the man that I was living with of those guys who were like extreme sportsmen,

You know,

The top mountain climbers of the world,

The top whitewater kayakers and many other things that they were all into.

And I did have conversations about all of this and it just had to do with this was their passion.

This was how they felt connected,

Alive,

You know,

Awestruck.

It was their passion.

And I used to have these conversations in specific with my boyfriend about,

I would try to convey to him that now he's playing not just with his own life for himself,

But for my life and my feelings and my potential grief and all of those things,

Not to mention all the other people who loved him.

And,

You know,

His view of it was that his life simply would not be worth living to him if he couldn't do those things.

And I believed him.

That's how he saw it.

That's how he experienced it.

But I would ask,

Is that,

Is it never possible to have some other,

Like I've actually had the thought,

It's just a mental exercise that is irrational,

But I'd love to have the conversation with him now.

I wouldn't think there'd be any regrets though because I think that this is how these people live.

And I guess the question is,

Do you love life more?

Would you be willing to forego all that risk taking and have more life?

Is there something about life,

Just ordinary life,

That's better than being dead?

And so,

You know,

I suspect that,

You know,

He would have thought twice about his adherence to this idea that without that kind of activity,

His life would be not worth living.

I wonder how in his moment of death when he realised this is it,

Whether.

.

.

Well,

One of the things I take comfort in with regard to his particular death was that he was struggling,

He was in freezing water,

His kayak had capsized.

He and his buddy were in a double kayak and it capsized into very,

Very cold water.

And the other guys that were with him,

They sent out a kayak and they could only take one person,

So they took the other guy who was a father of some young kids and so they took him.

And so my ex was in the cold water until another kayak could come,

But that kayak couldn't,

It was just a one-man kayak and he couldn't put him on anywhere.

So he was hanging on and kicking his feet as fast as he could and as much as he could for as long as he could.

And the guy in the kayak was having to bend over and hold up as much of his body out of the water that he could manage.

But at some point,

The cold overtook,

The hypothermia overtook my ex,

But he was still alive,

But he kind of passed out.

And he passed out at a point when they had also on ground or wherever the closest place where they had a satellite phone,

They had called for a helicopter.

So the helicopter was on the way,

His buddy is holding him up,

And he goes into unconsciousness from which he never emerged.

So one of the things that I felt comforted by in knowing this story was that probably in the last moments,

He thought he was being rescued.

Who knows what beyond that goes on in unconsciousness and hypothermia,

But at least there was that.

And he used to say,

When I would have these conversations with him,

He would say,

He fully expected to die in an accident,

Just to your point.

That's how he thought he would go.

But again,

Even in that time,

Even living up close to someone who was built that way,

Made that way,

I still thought he wasn't seeing the full picture clearly.

I just thought that because I have the direct experience of knowing that there's a possibility of having very enlivened life with simple ways of being,

You know.

And there were times with him,

Like one time I forced him,

I did a guided meditation.

I forced him to sit on the couch while I did a big mind guided meditation,

Very expansive.

And he got very quiet,

And at the end of it,

He said,

I should do that more.

So I always had this little hope that that was the direction things would go.

All this doing.

Yes.

Running around.

Oh my God.

My God.

I know.

I know.

It's quite compulsive.

It's quite conditioned.

It's quite inherent.

In myself,

I feel it all the time,

Every day.

Oh,

You should be doing this.

There's your opportunity.

You don't do that.

It's a tempest in a teacup.

Tempest in a teacup.

And I find also when times have been tricky or dangerous,

Whatever,

That there is,

I can say this,

There's the panic and the fear,

But there's also there's a calmness,

There's something else that operates.

We just get through it.

You haven't got any concerns about whether you're going to be good or bad or rich or famous or whatever happens.

You just go through it.

Yes.

And,

You know,

Wow.

Like in my own life,

I've nearly been eaten a few times.

By animals?

By crocodiles and stuff.

Really?

Really close.

What were you doing with a crocodile?

Just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yeah,

I'd say.

No,

No reason.

No good reason to be there.

No good reason to be here.

Just lucky.

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's funny.

So did that,

Do you have circumstances now?

Like,

Are you ever?

No,

Look,

I must admit,

I feel like- Do you avoid them?

No.

Well,

I would.

But,

Yeah,

There's not many situations in my life now where life and death are on the edge.

It was the lifestyle I was living that created that by sailing a boat.

I was in the tropics.

I was,

You know,

Very all over the place.

So running into pirates and all sorts of stuff.

I see.

And that was because of the lifestyle.

Sure.

But living in Ballina?

Might get hit by a car,

Maybe.

It's just,

I shouldn't have said that.

Yeah,

It's different.

Yeah.

And I don't know what I'm trying to convey here,

But I wonder what it is in me that's unrestful with the fact that it is so restful.

That it's so ordinary.

I just go to work,

Earn my money,

Fix this,

Do that.

There's not much excitement or anything in that for me at the moment.

Yeah,

And see,

Here's the other thing I was trying to convey in my opening talk,

And I'm not sure I conveyed it well.

But there are certain things we forego in order to have the subtler taste.

Right?

There's certain things that you just don't have.

It's not that you are denied them by fate or life or even by yourself,

But it's just somehow it doesn't roll out that way.

The need isn't there.

It's only there if you say that it is.

It's only a made-up need.

It's a conditioned need.

Not even a need.

It's a conditioned story that says to you,

This isn't quite enough.

It's not very exciting.

You know?

It's not that glamorous.

It's not what I imagined my life would end up as or be.

All those kinds of tormenting thoughts that diminish this very lovely existence that nine-tenths of the world would love to have.

So it's an inside job.

It's funny.

I just read a book,

Just a casual book about a refugee called The Rugmaker.

And it's a guy from Afghanistan who and this was set years ago.

So he got to Ashmore Reef and was picked up by the Australians and put in Woomera detention,

Da da da da da da.

But I guess the outstanding thing in the book is for things that we take so simple here,

So much for granted.

For him,

Absolutely mind-blowing.

Like,

Wow.

Like an answering machine.

My God,

It talks back.

It's really a very simplistic book.

There's nothing cosmic about it.

It's just like,

Wow.

But the perspective is very interesting because from what he went through with the Taliban and everything like that,

It's amazing.

Amazing.

He survived.

Incredible.

But,

You know,

There are now millions of people on planet Earth who never breathe one breath of fresh air,

Of clean air.

The only places they can be to breathe any kind of air that is breathable,

Really,

Is indoors.

And even that air is not very good.

I saw a special on,

You know,

Last year,

I think,

New Delhi's.

New Delhi's air quality.

I mean,

It was thousands of times beyond the allowable levels of the particles per cubic something or other.

But I saw this journalist.

He had an air filter,

A fancy air filter inside of his house.

And he showed the measurements of the air inside the house.

And that also was toxic.

You know,

Millions of people in places like Beijing and New Delhi and Mexico City and many places on Earth now.

Millions and millions of people.

Kids growing up,

Never knowing what it would be like to just breathe fresh,

Clean air like we breathe and think nothing of it.

Don't for one second think,

Oh,

Isn't this?

I do,

Though,

By the way.

I do.

I live in constant awe of appreciation.

I do.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I was listening to a talk on the ABC the other night on megacities and what's happening in some of them.

And it was just like Jakarta.

Parts of Jakarta have sunk 15 feet below sea level.

They're just building these huge walls to keep the sea out.

Yes.

Of Jakarta.

But only in the lifetime of some of the shopkeepers there,

They were above the sea.

It's not that the sea's risen,

It's that Jakarta's sinking.

And there's just,

Oh,

It's just amazing.

So many,

So many places.

Sao Paulo and Cape Town,

South Africa,

On severe rationing of water.

They're about to run out of water.

Yeah,

Severe rationing.

Really intense.

The whole place,

Four million people about to run out of water and so on.

I mean,

It's like these kind of reflections.

And so then for us,

To just.

.

.

What seems like nothing much happening or kind of simple or not that big a deal or about our lives,

It's like we're so lucky to have.

.

.

Because it's peaceful,

You know?

It's peaceful and it's abundant still.

And to really understand that.

So I'm just trying to dig under,

Though,

Just for you,

But also for this conversation that others will hear and will relate to.

Because I think so many lives have a story that say,

Okay,

This is okay,

But it's not really the one that I wanted.

I can make do,

But it's not the one that I.

.

.

As in their life?

Yes.

Yeah.

That there's something else,

Something more,

Some other life I was supposed to have or that I might.

.

.

I do feel like that.

So I'm just wanting to look at that one.

Yeah,

I'd love to look at that one.

Yeah.

Because I.

.

.

So tell me the story.

What is the story of the life that you should have had or would have?

Well,

I just hit a blank,

Don't I?

Because it's not anything.

.

.

What can I say?

Sounds like a fairy tale.

And what if you were.

.

.

Can you imagine,

Let's just do an exercise,

The thing that I said before,

That there you are now on the deathbed.

And you have the opportunity to look at it all in a sweep.

Yeah,

Which I do daily.

How does it look from that point?

A bit sad for me.

Yeah,

Just feels sad.

Yeah,

Just more time to be with my kids and do more things like that would be good.

And it's funny,

Like I've got opportunities like come travel around Australia with me and all that sort of stuff.

And none of that appeals to me at all.

With your kids or.

.

.

No,

With different girls or different things.

And it's like,

No.

But having more time,

Spending more time with your kids,

You could do that,

Right?

Not really.

They don't want to necessarily.

Well,

One's in Perth and that's.

.

.

Far away.

Far away.

The other's just in Brisbane and he came down the other weekend,

But that's why I wasn't here last weekend.

And he's good.

And then my third one,

I don't seem to hear from her at all.

And she's the youngest.

Yeah.

So I don't know what to do about that.

I could go and visit her on the Sunshine Coast,

But she lives with her mother.

So it's very difficult to just rock up and.

.

.

Yes.

Say hi.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's okay.

Right.

Okay.

So that's one category you would spend time with the kids and that it doesn't so much play out so easily.

What else would be different?

I probably wouldn't work as much.

That's understandable.

At all.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Understandable.

Yeah,

I'm a bit over that at the moment.

That's actually quite a big factor in my life at this point of time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Always working.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And always earning enough just to pay the bills and that's it.

Yeah.

And then I think,

Well,

Change your job.

Get a life.

Get out there.

And then that same thing happens again.

That same pressure,

That same thing that we're talking about and in society everyone's going for it.

And I don't feel to do that either.

Right.

So it's a bit of a – I'm in a bit of a jam like that,

Catherine.

But I would even invite you to – and just try this on.

Yeah,

Sure.

If it's not true for you,

Don't bother with it.

But there's some way in which actually you're living the life you've chosen.

Yes,

I'm aware of that.

And I think it's important.

There's a freedom in understanding that and seeing it.

And even though it has hard components,

Right,

You're not in the privileged position to basically just not work,

Right?

Oh,

Yes.

You and millions and perhaps billions of other people.

Probably.

Not in that privileged position.

You know,

One time I was in Central Park in New York City and I – yeah,

I'm on the board of an animal rights organization and I'm very attuned to animal rights.

So I'm horrified by how the horses are basically used in New York City,

You know,

Clomping around on those hard streets.

There's so much noise,

I mean just blaring sirens and just the most unnatural thing for an animal.

These are police horses?

Police horses,

Yes.

Not only police horses,

But – I'm sorry,

Not only police horses,

But horses that are used for tourists to take them around,

To carry them around in carriages.

And on this particular day,

It was snowing,

So you know they have hardly any hair on their legs,

So you know how cold it has to be.

And anyway,

So I went up to one of the guys,

A really,

Really nice Irish guy actually,

And we had a real heart to heart about the treatment of the horses.

Because I was proposing,

What right do – I mean I was trying to have this conversation in a really sort of nice way,

But I was just wanting to know,

You know,

And what right do we have to do this to these animals,

You know?

So he gives me this long rap about how actually they get a lot of time off and they get sent off to some nice farm for a part of the year,

Where they get to just be a horse and not a slave.

And you know,

And how well they're treated and they're not allowed to work too many hours in a row,

And it was all good,

Really good.

And then he said this amazing thing,

He said,

Look,

Everybody has to work for their food.

And I thought,

Okay,

Well that is a point,

You know?

Right?

It's almost everyone,

Not every single person,

There's those few privileged,

But almost everybody has to.

You got to serve somebody,

As Dylan said.

And so if you leave aside that component and don't fight against that one bit,

And I hear you,

You don't like it,

You don't have to like it,

But okay,

Let's say it's just the part of the life that you happen to be in.

Then is there a possibility to just say,

Okay,

There's a certain way that I've chosen a certain type of freedom,

Even though I have to work,

But I get to live where I want.

You could live anywhere.

If you decided to go live in Canada,

You could do it.

I know you liked Canada.

That you have these options,

You have tremendous freedom.

I do.

Yeah.

So you've actually chosen this,

And here it is.

Right?

I think sometimes it's good to do those exercises just so that you,

Again,

Double down and whisper yes to yourself.

This isn't some accident imposed on you.

You weren't kidnapped and put here.

No.

In my everyday,

What you've talked about would roll around several hundred times.

Good.

But it still feels like it's just a cycle.

It doesn't feel like anything's actually changing.

You know what I love about talking with you sometimes is you're a seeker.

Even though I used to be a seeker,

So I understand it.

I am no longer a seeker.

I don't claim any big finding,

By the way.

I just saw the futility of seeking.

But there's something very passionate about it.

And so it's like your mind is always wanting to work it like,

How could I find the thread through this thing that is going to make it?

You know,

It's going to really pop.

And that piece is the one I would say,

Even though I find it beautiful in its own way,

And I tend to always have hung out with seekers,

Seeker types,

Even the ones who then decided that there was no point in seeking anymore.

But what I would wish for you is that moment where you just say,

I'm done.

I'm just going to hang out.

I guess I'm a little flawed,

Catherine,

Because I've had a moment like that.

That was totally that.

Where,

As I've told you before,

The self ceased to exist.

And the whole physical universe and myself completely merged as one.

Yes.

So there was no me to even seek.

Right.

Yes.

No interest,

No dialogue.

No,

Oh,

My God,

What's happened?

Nothing.

Yeah.

And I spent a long time in that state and this other personality or self or whatever you want to call it,

Ego,

Whatever,

Crept back in and slowly accumulated again.

And here I am again.

But the memory of that,

The cellular memory,

The feeling of that,

Whatever you want to call it,

The expansion of that has never left.

Nice.

It's never left.

Good.

And there's no way I can ever get back to that because getting back to it is a lost cause as well.

So it's this kind of catch 22 in a way,

Isn't it?

It's like there you have it and there you don't.

And what do you do with that?

There's something that Eckhart Tolle talks about,

Which I love.

I love a lot of what he says.

And he says he loves the phrase and he thinks it's very accurate,

Human being,

Because really we're made up of these components.

There's a human component that we are,

Very human,

Human activities,

Human needs,

Human desires,

Etc.

Yes.

And there's a being part that is just being.

Right?

So he loves this particular construct of the two words,

Human being.

And you're pointing to it here in this conversation that that recognition that was just pure beingness with no self-referencing,

Just being.

And then the humanness also comes into play,

Has to be part of the warp and weave.

Why?

What is the humanness?

It's the part,

It's all of the ways that the human dances,

Whether it's desire or being helpful or loving your kids or going to work or caring about the boys in Thailand.

All of that is all the stuff of human activity and heart.

And these two components can either be sometimes merged very nicely or the beingness can become more and more the sort of saturated place that you hang out,

But that you still give plenty of play to the humanness.

But you don't have to make it only one or the other.

I just find the thing you call a humanness,

So much as conditioning.

And there is conditioning.

There is conditioning.

So much of all those movements in humanness.

Right,

But that's just part of it.

We are humans with human needs and desires.

And if one has,

I mean,

There's no point in denying that or fighting against it.

And it's not wrong.

It's not wrong to have this.

I think I have a problem there with that.

I don't see it as wrong,

But I don't really embrace it or give it much.

I tend to pull back and just sit with things rather than act.

Well,

That's perhaps how you're made.

And that's fine,

Too.

That's part of how you play it.

I don't know.

I actually don't know.

Yeah,

Well,

I'm not pointing to something you have to know about.

Yeah,

Being human.

Right,

But rather the invitation really is to not struggle against your life as it is,

As it is,

Your beautiful,

Beautiful life.

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