"How To Grow Old" - Bertrand Russell

Excerpted from Dharma Dialogues with Catherine Ingram. Recorded in Lennox Head, Australia in September 2018. From the opening talk: “In his essay ‘How To Grow Old’, Bertrand Russell wrote: "The best way to overcome the fear of death, so at least it seems to me, is to make your interests gradually wider and more impersonal, until bit by bit the walls of the ego recede, and your life becomes increasingly merged in the universal life." ”

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep.

I'm your host,

Katherine Ingram.

The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues held in Lenox Head,

Australia in September of 2018.

It's called How to Grow Old.

I wanted to read something from Bertrand Russell.

I loved this.

It's from an essay that he wrote called How to Grow Old,

But this is just an excerpt.

The best way to overcome the fear of death,

So at least it seems to me,

Is to make your interests gradually wider and more impersonal until bit by bit the walls of the ego recede and your life becomes increasingly merged in the universal life.

An individual human existence should be like a river,

Small at first,

Narrowly contained within its banks and rushing passionately past rocks and over waterfalls.

Gradually the river grows wider,

The banks recede,

The waters flow more quietly,

And in the end,

Without any visible break,

They become merged in the sea and painlessly lose their individual being.

The man who in old age can see his life in this way will not suffer from the fear of death since the things he cares for will continue.

And if with the decay of vitality,

Weariness increases,

The thought of rest will not be unwelcome.

Sort of says it all.

I've often reflected on similar things,

So I hadn't read that until quite recently,

But for a long time,

For a couple of decades at least,

I've had the sense that having a wider identification of self seemed,

First of all,

Very logical and reasonable and also gives you a sense of the continuation.

Whether that means the continuation of us,

I don't know,

But the continuation of this mysterious manifestation of universal being.

It's very easy though,

Isn't it,

To get very locked down into just thinking about me and what's important to me and what does this creature need and want and all of that kind of rumination becomes very habitual and seductive because it really is the new passion,

I think.

I think it's peculiar to our time.

It has really intensified this constant obsession,

This constant fixation of the personal rather than the universal or the impersonal or the wider sense of being.

Those are almost like old-fashioned values and yet they're the deepest and the truest values.

I loved also that last line I read.

It's another thing that I've reflected on a lot,

How I've known a number of people who hit a point in old age and sometimes through disease whereby death became their best friend.

One of my friends who died of cancer at a relatively young age in her late 40s,

In the last days of her life,

Her mind was a little bit gone by then,

But I called.

I was not where she was.

I was at a different city,

But I called and she got on the phone.

Her husband handed her the phone and she said,

Do you know any way to help me die?

And I was aware that by that point there was nothing set up,

Nothing had been put into place.

So there wasn't anything to be done that I knew of at the moment.

And fortunately she died in a few days,

But it was such a moment of understanding that there can come a point where you realize,

Yes,

It's time to go and that would be a better thing.

Right?

So anyway,

I love this whole thing,

How to Grow Old.

The understanding of the widening of self,

Of the releasing of this stronghold of identification with the personal and into more the universal,

Into more the collective,

Into more just as we were sitting here and I was feeling that cool breeze coming through and I was just feeling the kind of the coolness that one feels in springtime,

You know,

Just that kind of recognition of that welcoming of something that's familiar and yet always new.

That letting the attention be much more merged with those kinds of reflections that you're experiencing,

Right?

In a sense,

Just experiencing almost like the universality of springtime,

You know,

That spring comes now in the part of the world that I came from.

It's the opposite.

So I'm often reminded of that as well.

Just the,

You know,

They're going into fall and they're experiencing,

You know,

Sprays of coolness in the air and we're going into spring and experiencing a different kind of coolness in the air and letting the attention be very wide and free and big and because the attention constantly on me,

It's depressing.

That's why people are depressed.

It's not quite a question but it's more just supporting what you're saying.

I was just in Melbourne and my mother's husband just died and he was quite a well-known figure and he'd written several books and he was an expert in this and that and leading up to his death,

He was still planning his next book,

Right?

So he's still working hard and this is what I'm going to write and do you know what I mean?

I've decided to make a play about this so he's working hard.

Of course,

It was obvious what was going to happen,

Right?

But when he,

So he fell into a coma for about four days before he actually died and his children that had been quite estranged from him,

When he went into a coma,

They could all come and be around him and suddenly there was room for them to be there and they stayed there really for most of that four days and he was completely out of it and no longer in that side of his brain and I did think,

You know,

What a pity that he wasn't kind of conscious to take that in.

Yes.

You know.

Right.

But he had a very big me.

Yes.

A very kind of publicly acknowledged me.

Yes.

I hadn't kind of put that together really until you were speaking and I was just reflecting on that.

Yes.

Yes.

Like I often have times where I'm scared that I don't have enough of a me but when I see what the consequences.

Where a real big me looks like.

Yes,

One doesn't usually like to be around them.

Yes.

Sad but true,

Huh?

Yes,

It is.

And it's so ironic too because often those people who are wanting to have that gigantic,

You know,

Somebody-ness they're showing to the world,

Often what's unconsciously driving them is a craving for acceptance.

Right.

And they may get smidgens of it from strangers,

Right,

Who they've impressed through their hard works and their success but often you do find that the story of the personal life,

The people who were supposedly their loved ones,

There's a lot of estrangement and a lot of,

You know,

Rancor and fighting and bad blood.

It is often the case because those people are hard to be with.

I mean,

I suppose there are some cases where there is a big personality like that that isn't so impossible to be with.

But still,

Even if they're behaving in a decent way,

When you're around someone who's so invested in themselves,

I knew someone,

I mean,

I've known many people like that,

But one is just coming to mind.

He was quite well known in San Francisco and elsewhere as well.

He was very,

Very well known.

And one of my friends knew him.

And every time we would run into him,

He would just start rapping at us.

I mean,

Just rapping at us,

Like,

You know,

Just nonstop.

And I must have met him 15 times and every single time he had not ever remembered meeting me.

Despite having me be part of his audience of two,

Many,

Many times for a long time,

For like 10 or 15 minutes of him just rapping at us.

But so clearly,

What was going on?

What was going on in his awareness?

There was just this massive need to be listened to on stage,

You know,

Et cetera.

And virtually no actual presence with me.

I don't know how he was experiencing my friend who was more in his domain of fame.

But anyway,

I'm just remembering that as you were speaking.

And how,

For me,

I found it quite oppressive.

Not that I actually needed him to acknowledge me,

But I found it oppressive that I was expected to listen with rapt attention to someone who,

It was clear to me,

Just had this massive need to be somebody.

So that was really what I was experiencing.

I wasn't even so much experiencing his story.

I was experiencing his need,

You know.

Not the only time I've had that experience,

Right?

Yeah.

And it is also touching when you see that.

You know,

There's a kind of desperation in it if you have eyes to see.

But a lot of times people who are rolling on that kind of success,

They don't get much feedback about how others are experiencing them.

Because a lot of times people are really dazzled to be around them.

People are dazzled by fame.

I don't know if I really have a question,

But more what you're sharing has made me think of a dear friend of mine who passed away last year from cancer.

She was a therapist.

And she was an amazing woman.

And she followed this kind of,

The me just started going.

And she was more and more with spirit.

And more and more people would want to be with her.

Because as a therapist,

You just sit with her and she'd start with whatever was going on.

And then by the end of this session,

You were just in this state of oneness with something,

You know,

Connection.

She just took everyone to this place.

And at her funeral,

Everyone would remark,

There's lots of clients who become friends and they'd remark how she had this capacity to bring people into that space.

And I was very close with her actually.

And as she let go of the me,

And I knew,

It's funny because I would try and engage her with kind of me ambitions to try and keep her alive.

I kind of,

When she was dying of cancer,

I'd like try and get her kind of enthusiastic.

And she'd get enthusiastic and then it would go.

But I just didn't want her to die along with a lot of people.

But what also I noticed,

And this is my kind of reflection to you,

Is as the me of her went and those ego things,

They passed,

But they didn't stay.

And she was like the shade of a big tree with so many people.

But she didn't get very much.

I mean,

She got from people loving her,

But people took from her.

I just felt like she died very quickly from there.

And I just wonder if it's,

Yeah,

I just wonder about that,

What happened there.

Like if the me disappears in that way,

Which she did so beautifully with her,

And so many people could see her.

But I don't know,

I wonder if she didn't get nourished enough to stay here,

If that's what happens.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.

And I obviously didn't know her,

But what I was feeling into as she was speaking is that she probably understood very well human nature and understood very well.

It's something I say all the time that the deeper you go,

The more you sit in understanding without expecting to be understood.

And especially if you're dying,

Which is a particular thing that until you're there,

You don't understand.

So probably she was sitting in a lot of understanding and wisdom and compassion,

Looking around at the concerns and behaviors and still the solidity of ego in the people around.

And I think that's really true.

And she wanted to die.

She had cancer and it made me really quickly.

And she was really conscious of her death in that way.

But just that space when she let,

When she,

That transition,

Like the river coming into that broad and open and just how precious that was for so many people and how special it was to be able to be there and how sad that it couldn't go on longer.

That people can reach that state where they're no longer pushing out of me and they're available.

This kind of interface in a way,

But then it just doesn't seem.

.

.

Right,

But it sounds like it's living in you and probably all who's her life touched.

And everything is time limited.

So it's like so lucky that you got that and took it in so deeply.

Because you wouldn't have wanted her to suffer,

Right?

And also,

There's no knowing if in fact you all got the very best of what could possibly be the case given that at some point the body and the brain start just shutting down a bit.

I guess I wonder if having the me is connected with also a drive.

Hanging around.

Yeah,

To still being here.

And then when you let that go,

It's not that you die immediately,

But I guess maybe there's fear there.

I don't think it's lethal to do it.

But I think that especially if the body is worn out and tired,

That not having a really strong purpose or idea that you should stick around or whatever,

You just would allow it to slip away maybe a little more easily.

Although I don't think you can will it either,

You know?

So.

But you do see cases and you hear of cases of people who managed to hang on until after their pet died or after the child graduates from high school or after this or that,

That there's a way in which you can get a sense that there was some life force that wanted to continue for a purpose.

And other cases where people slip away,

What seems to be mid-stride,

You know?

So it's a mysterious thing.

There's a quote I like.

For those with little understanding,

Even a thousand books of scripture are not enough.

For those with understanding,

Even one word is too much.

So it's just back to the quiet and the simplicity and,

You know,

Feeling the breeze and smelling the flowers and being kind.

Been lying on my back for the last few weeks.

As you know,

I had a back injury.

It's been very interesting.

Took me through a lot of different spaces.

So I really didn't,

I couldn't sit up for any more than about 10 minutes until I found a proper back support.

And so I went through a lot of different emotions around my wellness and also about my aloneness,

Having to reach out.

And I feel really grateful now for having been through that.

I mean,

I'm still recovering,

But I found I really came to a much quieter place within myself.

And one of more surrender,

You know,

Really relating to the first reading that you made and just feeling like I'm just coming to a much quieter place in the river where I don't need to be.

And noticing,

Noticing when I'm on that vast river.

So it's been a really,

Really interesting.

And were you able to be more comfortable about asking for help?

Yeah,

I did reach out to a few people and I did get the help that I needed.

And a lot of the resources were new resources close to home,

Which I hadn't discovered yet.

So that was really excellent,

Finding new things.

In the way of?

A new doctor that I hadn't experienced before.

And then he took me through a whole load of different things.

And I found out something new about my personal health,

Which was really good,

Which was,

You know,

Meant that was much better than what it was 10 years ago in some aspects.

So that was,

I felt really grateful for that and hopeful that change was occurring.

Great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I had a lot of time to listen,

Listen to a few of your podcasts.

You probably heard yourself on one or two.

I did.

That was funny.

Yeah.

And quite a few listened to other things and read and had very quiet time,

Which is very beautiful in many ways.

Yeah.

I'm communicating with my tree,

Which is the same sort of,

A bit closer than yours is to here.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

It's interesting when there's kind of imposed stopping happens,

Right?

There's a way in which we then are allowed to give ourselves permission to really be stopped,

You know.

Whereas unless there's some kind of infirmity,

Often we're a little bit plagued with,

This isn't okay.

I can't just be lolling about looking at the tree.

Absolutely.

That's absolutely how I've,

You know,

From my life and also how my father ran his life.

He was also a very big me person.

So that was kind of interesting listening to that.

Yeah.

And the fact that there wasn't any space right up until the end for really any of the family,

You know,

There was just,

It was just a huge menace,

Which close to the end became like there was more space.

But I found in the end that I was so sort of damaged and hurt from this lack of availability for me that I cut myself off from him,

You know.

Yeah.

So I wasn't able to,

Even when he really needed me.

Right.

Yeah.

And understandable kind of in a too little,

Too late way,

You know.

But of course,

If we could look,

If we knew then what we now know,

We could have just accepted it for what it was.

Absolutely.

But fair enough that at the moment,

It felt,

You know,

This kinds of human reactions would be a natural arising and very hard to overcome,

You know,

Without in some ways having had the experience before,

You know.

So many times I feel,

And I speak a lot about the power of regret,

You know,

And how the ally of it is that you take it forward and it informs you next time around if you have another situation that's similar.

But of course,

On his side,

It's the price then one pays for a lifetime of not showing up in a certain way.

That's right.

And he sort of shared with me a few times and when I was able to be with him and,

You know,

He said,

It's just,

It's really so simple.

I wish I'd known.

Oh,

It's touching.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is touching.

Yeah.

Because he was so determined and so definite and so exact about what he did.

And with his students,

He taught a lot of people and was very,

Very rigid.

And he said,

Really,

All I had to do was love.

You know,

There's a great Dylan Stanza,

Love is so simple to quote a phrase.

You've known it all along.

I'm learning it these days.

Yeah.

Very simple.

And a lesson a lot of people don't learn until quite late,

If ever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I've come to a much gentler pace in myself having to surrender to not being able to do anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Don't forget.

Because it's very easy,

You know.

Absolutely.

You get back into the.

.

.

Of course.

Of course.

And I,

That's what my father did.

And I recognized that same pattern in me.

But,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks for asking.

And then there's also this other phenomenon,

Which is,

You know,

A situation like you're describing,

It comes with a certain kind of tenderizing.

You know,

There's a certain tendering,

Tenderizing that's happening.

A surrender,

A kind of feeling of physically being a bit vulnerable.

A space to kind of reflect on what are the important things.

There's a kind of very,

You know,

Almost unbearable tenderizing that starts to occur.

And there can be a way in which one wants to just run,

You know,

As soon as possible back to the old numbing.

To not have to feel into all that,

You know.

So it's,

That's another thing to sort of just watch and be interested in as those old habits can start to arise and you find yourself falling back into other ways,

Your old ways of seeing or being or doing all those things.

Just out of avoidance of the intensity of feeling so much and being so sensitive and,

You know,

And yet the clarity when you're in that of how that is what's important.

And you don't want to just be on your deathbed realizing that,

You know.

So it's a fine balance along the way.

And it's also,

I'm so happy to hear that you did reach out because it also is the power of sangha.

Even if it doesn't have to mean that it's sangha of people who see things the same as you.

As you were describing this,

The doctor and the connection and the I was remembering because your whole thing was evoking a memory.

So I had shingles,

As some of you know,

A couple of years ago.

And it was also a phase of infirmity.

I first was hospitalized and then I got to go home and,

But I was living alone.

And I had to rely on my community for everything.

I couldn't go to the store.

I had to go to the store or anything like that.

And also was bedridden quite a lot.

It hurt to move anything,

To do anything.

And I had this very complicated regime of medications to be taking throughout the day.

So I was very dependent.

And I think about all the angels,

Some of whom I didn't even know well,

One of them was the girlfriend of one of my friends.

She and a friend of hers came over and washed all my sheets because it was dangerous having shingles.

And if the sheets got unclean,

Which of course,

If you're laying in bed for days on end,

They are.

So you're prone to infection.

It's basically like being burned.

And these people I really didn't even know came over and did my laundry in my house and waited there while it was done and changed all the sheets.

And just so many things like that were happening.

And I just felt this intense surrender to love and gratitude.

And when you're in those moments,

It's almost like you're in an altered state and you're feeling into it and just thinking you're never going to forget this.

But you do.

Life floods in.

It takes really a kind of intention to remember what's important and to live at that tender spot.

And to live at that tender spot.

Until next time.

Reviews

Thank you for your gentle wisdom!

I will revisit this again. I thought it was insightful.

Wow. Deeply thoughtful and supportive for aging, death, facing surrender in any way. Thank you :)

Wonderful talk, enjoyed it. 🙏🙏🙏👍

So much gratitude for this. Thank you!