Bearing Witness

Bearing witness to injustice doesn't necessarily assume personal responsibility to right a wrong; there are situations over which we can have no effect, even if we gave our lives to the cause. But bearing witness has its own intrinsic value and sometimes bears fruit in ways we couldn't imagine down the line. Change begins with awareness of an issue.

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep. I'm your host, Catherine Ingram. The following was excerpted from a Zoom session of Dharma Dialogues, Which was broadcast from Australia on July 5, 2020. It's called Bearing Witness. One of my friends said to me on the phone this past week that the happiest time of his life was when his children were young. Because in addition to the joy of being with his children, And all that goes with that, The general delight of having children around, He said that he was freed from having to think about himself, Which is definitely a much more pleasurable situation, Not having to think about yourself all the time. And having children is a very effective way of having that happy occurrence. And perhaps we know those people, Those of us who are parents and whose children are now grown, You can maybe notice the difference. In addition to not having their good company and their sweet company and their energy, There might be a lot more focus on, Well, Me. What about me? I would propose there's a way to direct the mind such that you're watchful for a lot of obsession on what I call all the time, The me story. As long as you're rolling in the me story, Things usually are not going well. It's basically what I like and what I don't like. Those are the themes. There's a whole lot of subjects we can put in either of those categories. I like, I don't like. Or how does this situation relate to me? How does this affect me? Right? So there is a possibility and it's really a habit to delink from that kind of obsessive flow of thought. It doesn't mean you have to have it never arise. That's fairly impossible. But you can become much more uninterested in the material. Just as it's arriving, You're just not that interested. Right? You're just not. It's usually repetitive, Even though the scenery changes in your story. The scenery changes a bit. The storyline is awfully familiar. It's like seeing remakes of the same movie every day. So to understand the way of living and that kind of obsession is not going to lend to mental wellbeing. And it's easy enough to redirect the attention. It's easy enough to just move the attention into present awareness or into some form of gratitude or into some sort of service. And that service might be as simple as reaching out to an old friend by email and just saying, Just thinking of you, How are you doing? Something little even, Right? It's amazing how many opportunities there are for those kinds of offerings. And it's also kind of amazing how sometimes we put off doing them. We have the intention perhaps. I spoke last night on the Zoom session about how often it's happened to me during this pandemic time that I've actually reached out to people that I've been meaning to reach out to for frankly years in some cases. Since I've moved to Australia, I've lost touch with a lot of old friends just by the way that geography can do that. Even though we live in an interconnected world, It's difficult to kind of keep up with everybody everywhere you've ever lived. And so on. And how good it has felt to be in touch with people who had lived very strongly in my heart all along. So there's a way to both in a very practical way and in a kind of psychological or sort of mentally directing way to free yourself from this constant story about me. What do I think and what do I like and where did I go and where am I going and my dramas and this one and that one did this and that. Right? It's exhausting to even call up the list. And some people just live in that all the time. We know them. We know people whose story is just all about themselves all the time. I always sense that as a desperation. And I try my best to have compassion for it. But I have to admit it is wearisome. It's a wearisome thing to experience with people. One can only imagine how wearisome it is to live it all the time. So for ourselves, We can really allow for this big me story to fade into some historical photo book or something. And again, It's not to say that the story doesn't arise. It arises on its own. I'm speaking about I'm speaking about giving it interest, Feeding it, Making it your primary subject. Really nice to be here. I guess I love looking into kind of evolutionary psychology and biology. And I guess our interest and our interest in ourselves, I think comes from that like incessantly to survive. And I'm just wondering how you sort of perceive that in your understanding of the world. Because I think that's where a lot of my when I do get in that more like anxious, Self obsessed, It feels like it's coming from a survival mode. It's like a fight or flight instinct more than anything else. And I guess how do you separate yourself from that something that is biologically hardwired into our system? Well, I don't separate myself. I understand that it's just there and I accept it. And like you, I find evolutionary psychology fascinating. I think it also helps to make more impersonal. The me story, When you understand that certain things are hardwired, That we don't really have a lot of control over the whole autonomic nervous system, The whole reptilian brain operation, And even the limbic, Which is more kind of the emotional realm, You know, That animals have that we share with other mammals, You know, That's all quite on its own operating systems, You know. So I do find it fascinating. And what I like to say is that we have just this little tiny rudder of where we can direct our attention. So when you have something huge arising, A fight or flight, Which arises in the biological system on its own, Now all you can do with that is move your attention around. Now, The more facile you are with moving your attention, The more you'll be able to calm the system down. And depending on your own nature, That might take a shorter or longer period than it might for someone else. Some people who perhaps have higher tendency to anxiety, Even when they do direct their attention, It might take a while for it to things to calm down. And that's just to be expected. You don't have to worry about how long it takes, Even though you just suffer a little longer if you're someone who it takes longer for. But there's no, Yeah, There's no, I think there's no expectation that would one would need that these things don't arise. They just do. So there's no separation. And I'm very, Very averse to transcendent philosophies that promise some kind of freedom from the arising of fear, The arising of greed, The arising of hatred. Okay. I have not seen it. And I was looking around for a long time for that. But I have not come across it. Some more than others might have a diminishment of those characteristics. The main thing, Though, Is for people who do have those arisings and who are well steeped and trained in directing their minds, They usually don't act on them. They don't speak out of those states of mind, And they don't act. And if they happen to, If that might happen in some small way, Or whatever, They rectify. Right? They immediately look to assuage the situation, Whether by apology or make some other motion to kind of change the situation. That's a lovely consequence of being very, Very habituated in this way of being, Because you have a pretty immediate feedback loop when something doesn't feel right. You know, It's a weight in your heart that stands out because otherwise your heart isn't so weighty. Right? It really stands out in high relief because your heart isn't just a jumble of nonsense and craziness and regret and stories and obsessions and greed and all the rest of it. It's a much more clear, Open space. And so when some conditioned darkness arises in you, And usually that's not a problem because you don't, Nothing happened, You just let it go on. But if some does and some action or words are spoken out of it, They blow back for you. Right? Because you're so sensitive. Like I sometimes use the example. I often say that ethics are actually written in our heart. You don't need to learn them. And the ones that are written in our hearts are actually more demanding than all the ethical systems that I know of, Which usually are handed down through religious systems often, Not always, But the ones that have to do with how to be a decent person and a kind person and someone who's empathic to another's circumstance. And so I think that's a really important part of it. Those are theirs. If you can just, If you just find this quiet space in which you hang out, They're already there. It's already written in bold. And, And so what I notice when, Let's say, As an example, You're in company of some sort back in the days when we used to be able to hang out with humans, You're in some sort of company. And you say something, You make a joke at the, At the slight expense of your friend. Maybe it's not even that big a deal, Right? It's not, It's not an attack on their character. It's something else, Some mild, Minor thing. But you notice that there's a, There's a flash of embarrassment on your friend's face. And that they're, That they're, They're laughing isn't real, A real laugh. It's a laugh of embarrassment. In your heart, That is recorded as something you would rather not have done. And that you might make a note to self that you're not wanting to do things like that again. So it's like you're, You're relying on your own feedback system of this way that you use your attention to keep you on track. And you also have to allow in that whole equation that there are things that are highly conditioned in us. That we just have some, A lot of it we have no control over, Like anger can arise. You know, I've often said, I believe we have come from a long line, And you studying evolutionary psychology certainly know this, A very fierce, Lusty, Often violent ancestors. They were the tough ones who made it through. They were really tough. And we've got their genes. And so what we do have, Though, Is the phenomenal privilege of having had access to Dharma teachings, And ways to use our attention, Learning how to use our attention. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for the gathering. In relation to what you were, You're talking about in terms of that self-talk, And the I stuff. I wonder a lot about my need or desire to share what I struggle with, Which is, I suppose, Mostly about I, With others and to express it like creatively. And it feels like it keeps unwinding that I get relief from sharing it. And so, When I listen, When I hear you speaking about it, Like not to focus on it, Then sharing with others is like focusing on it. And I'm not sure if by, You know, It will diminish if I stop sharing. I don't know, The impulse, It's almost like the need to relieve myself in the toilet is similar to relieve myself in my mind and heart. Especially when it comes out creatively, It doesn't seem like such a bad thing because it seems to entertain people. But when I do it with friends, And I just, When you said, People like that are difficult to be around, Who are talking about themselves, I just, I'd just like to know what you think about that. Okay, First of all, I think that you're sharing it creatively in your performance art is an incredibly, Both, It's a great offering for others, Because it's often so universal, And, You know, So much what everyone struggles with. And I also think that it's probably cathartic for you, Like you said, To get it out, Just to get it out. But I would ask you, How is it to live with it internally? In an ongoing way? Like, That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it exactly. But it's just that it's a suffering, It's a state of suffering. And I also would ask you if when you're just casually with your friends, I'm not talking about sometimes one has to share that you're going through something, And you have to talk about your I story in those cases. But if you're with just your friends, Who you've known a long time, Is that is that way of relating just hanging out? How does it feel to just only want to talk about yourself to them, Not in a performance context, But just, You know, Social context? It makes me not want to talk to my friends, Because I don't want to see that in myself. I don't want to hear it. So I mean, I'd much rather go to a gallery and share a piece of art, You know, Like rather than what I'm thinking about. But the need for the relief is really strong. And if I avoid people because it keeps coming up in conversation, And I don't really want to hear this stuff so much either. So I don't want to hear it. And I don't want to speak it. But it just feels, You know, At a time where I need the content most, I avoid it. Because I don't want it just feels like a not. Yeah, I hear you. Well, I mean, What's coming to me to say, Honestly, Is that you have an incredible outlet now granted, We're we're locked down right now. But maybe there's some other way for you to do it online or something. But anyway, You do have an outlet and an incredibly insightful expression, I say because I saw your performance once in Melbourne. That is a great gift. And if you feel that you're being in company, Makes you uncomfortable, Because you don't feel like talking about anything else, Then it's okay to not be. You can be alone. And if you get too tired of being alone, Then you find one or two people who you know, Are going to want to hear this, Want to hear your story, Want to feel privileged to have a personal private performance of sorts. So then, You know, The main thing I want to say to all of us is to give you permission to be yourself and to live your own authentic, Completely unique, Poonjaji used to say, A path so narrow to cannot walk abreast, Your own narrow path of what this life is. What I'm saying today is, There are ways to direct the attention that will snap you out of it, Hopefully, Out of this kind of constant story of rumination, Right? There are ways you can, Like I said, Reach out, Do some kind of help for someone else. And, But I mean, I do, I do really honor that your work is of benefit, It is of sort of spiritual benefit and psychological benefit for others. And it gives permission to for kind of honesty, Which you really have a mastery in a kind of honesty about your internal landscape. I just would propose and you're, And you're actually saying this, That having to constantly live in that internal landscape on the same kind of themes, Gets tiring. So there's ways to move your attention elsewhere. And that's all you would need to, That's my only adjustment that I would say for you is to just start moving your attention elsewhere off of the story. And use the story for your art and use it maybe sometimes for your best friends, Who all love to hear it. And just kind of keep it in balance. I hear you saying everything's fine. Yeah. Yeah, I'm saying That's as it is in a sense. Yeah, Well, I'm saying everything's fine. And just notice that. Just basically accept, Like I said last night, A big part of the conversation was about acceptance of your own self, Dignifying your own life, You're so unique, As we each are, Right? And so you don't have to make any apologies or any of my suggestions about redirecting your attention is simply just to alleviate you from having to suffer it too much. Yeah, I tend to take information in, In the type of all or nothing type. My response is quite intense. And oh, You can't do that. You know, It's, It's a lot, What you're saying is a lot more gentle than the way I receive it, In a sense. And, You know, Like it's a package and I sort of know the package, But when you pull one individual thing, Thought out from the package, And then, Oh, You know, That so that shifts the balance of everything. But I really appreciate the way you reassure us. And I really love that phrase of dignify your individual experience of life. Yes, Yes. I really appreciate that. And thank you for all your beautiful support in my creative life. Oh, I loved that. I'd be your biggest fan if I got to live in Melbourne. It means a lot to me, Catherine. Say again? It means a lot to me. Thank you. You're welcome, Dear. Hi, The topic is so apropos to where I am right now. Because the me story is in all my boxes that I'm unpacking from 62 years on the planet. And, You know, Just finding so much of it, And I get so overloaded, And I find that I, I dawdle away from it by making meals, And then cleaning up and just to just to just not have to look at the me story. But it's also part of me, You know, In terms of wanting to direct my attention elsewhere. You know, I'm in Miami Beach, And we have huge numbers, You know, I mean, Such a spike going on now and people are not being cautious. And I'm living in a new, A brand new community, And nobody wants to know me, You know, Suddenly. I came here because there were so many classes, And there was such a social curriculum. I was able to become a we story suddenly when I first came down. Yeah. And that's why I chose to buy this apartment. And literally, You know, A few weeks later, The pandemic happened, And we can't mingle. And I find that everybody's, Everybody's orbit is just shrinking to the known, The known relationships, You know, People that have known each other for 20 years or even seven, You know, That have that have a story together already. And you know, The fact of the matter is, I can smile and say hello. And people will respond to that smile, But not always. I mean, Only within the apartments, You know, When I'm on the boardwalk, Everybody looks as though you're threatening their life. So, We have to wear masks or not? We do. We just two days ago became a regulation that whenever we're outside, We have to wear masks. Until then, If we are outdoors on the boardwalk, And there was not enough people, You know, Not many people around, Many of us would take our masks off. But, And even then, You can see more of the scowl. People don't know each other, You know, It's a big city. And I have not, I've made some friends, And we try to, I've made some friends in the dance classes. But now we're doing it online. But again, These people have known each other for a decade. And I'm the newcomer, And I'm no longer on the docket for them. So, It becomes such a me story. And then I obsess in that, Why have I, You know, I may need a plan B. You know, Even though I've just moved here, I may be packing up again, You know? Because I go to the support system. And I don't see one evolving. I mean, People are saying, Well, It's gonna change, This is gonna change. But life is, Life, The baseline of life has just changed dramatically. And it's not going to go back to where we were. At least not for a community, You know, A community like this, Where you're arm in arm taking dance classes every day and all that. So, It's not gonna happen. I can't imagine it's gonna happen like that. So, So the me story is really, I am just like, Choking on it right now. Mm-hmm. Yes. Okay. Well, It certainly does seem that this is the time for some kind of deep patience. Because where can you even run to, Right? You would have to go somewhere else in America, Since Americans now are not allowed to go anywhere else, Practically. It's a good thing it's a nice big country. But you know, Then you just trade off different sets of problems, Right? You could maybe think to go to some tiny dinky town somewhere that you actually also don't know anyone. Or you can just say to yourself, This is what it is for now. Right? And just really sink into the simple pleasures of your day. You're very fortunate, Of course, To have your own place, To have food, You have safety. What you're missing is a sense of cozy community. I'm missing that too, Other than my Zoom sessions, Right? It's, You know, That this is a different time, And we've got to just wait this out and adjust. And I'd say, The quicker one adjusts in this, The less you will suffer about it. You know, To kind of think that, Again, I spoke about it last night, Part of what torments us is the disparity between what we think should be happening and what actually is happening. That's where we get the misery. So, If you just say, Okay, I've got this very cool apartment in Miami Beach. I'm just going to kick back, I'm going to do online dance classes, I'm going to maybe study this or that I haven't been able to get to, Or like I'm suggesting, Find some way to be helpful, Any old simple way, You know, Maybe even if you do pass any of your neighbors, Just say, You know, If ever you'd like me to pick something up while I'm out, Let me know. Here's my number, Or my email. So things like that, Just, You have to kind of get creative. And set aside as best you can. The story of what you wish were happening. The wish for what is what should be happening that is not happening is itself a misery. If you turn it around and just say, I fully accept. This is what it is. I am one of the lucky ones on planet Earth. Like one of the really lucky ones you and I and all of us here are. Even though you're in a country that's not at all handled this pandemic well, But nevertheless, You have enough intelligence and wherewithal to keep yourself protected. Right. And I am convinced, Having spent, I don't know how many, Several hundred hours studying this virus and all of the science day by day, I watch it, Believe me. And I'm very convinced that if everyone wore masks when we were out, We would be pretty protected. And it may come to that until something else can be figured out. And also being outside wearing a mask is quite safe. So to really kind of be grateful for these small advantages that we do have. And I understand, Of course, That as human animals, We like to be with our little herd. Not everyone. Some people are natural owners. And I mean that in an admiring way. I fully appreciate people who spend a lot of time alone. I imagine that they live in very deep waters. I spend a lot of time alone. So I understand how that is. But I too am much more of a social creature than I'm able to enact at this point. My life was sort of a blend of being alone a lot, But having a dinner to look forward to or meeting someone somewhere at a particular gathering or looking forward to trips to Europe for retreats or to New Zealand, All those things are off the table. Now, Very quickly, I realized I cannot torment myself with what might have been. That is going to be because that could go on and on and on and on. You know, We may be in a circumstance where this is a long time. So, You know that this goes on. So if that's the case, Then we make these adjustments, Make them now. And anyway, Now you have a new group of friends to hang out with. Yes. And also, I would add, By the way, That Dharma friends and having them kind of clustered all together. I mean, You could spend years in Miami and not have this many people on your wavelength. So that's a really great thing. That's a great benefit that we're able to have. Yeah. Thank you, Catherine, Very much. You're welcome. Yeah, I connected to more things as the conversation has gone on. I think it hinges around responsibility. What I've been wondering is, What are the bounds of my responsibility? What I notice is that I have this voracious appetite for world statistics in the current situation. And it seems to come from a place of needing to know what's going on. And this event is so huge. And everywhere's going up and down at different times. It's like a really long Shakespeare play with ups and downs. One of the things that's gone through my mind is that connecting to evolutionary psychology is that at the time that we were maybe a lot more lusty and a lot more violent, The boundaries of our responsibility were very, Very small. It just stretched to the village. And if it was a locality, It was a big deal. And if it was a king, It became history. But it's not like that now. There seems to be no boundaries to the possibility of feeling responsible for this situation. And I really don't like it. It's one of the things that I'm trying to practice. And I'm trying to practice and I really don't like it. It's one of the things that I'm trying to practice is just pulling myself back from that. It's not quite an obsession, But it's some sort of restless need to know things that are not actually doing me very much good in the end. And what I wonder is where my boundaries are. I think that bearing witness doesn't have to assume a certain type of responsibility. Sometimes we're bearing witness to what has happened and what is happening. And we also see that we can do nothing about it, Or not much, Not much. We can maybe affect some things around us. So it's to really put the idea of responsibility in its place. There's maybe some situations that you can respond to and that you have the ability to respond to, But that you have a natural interest. And maybe that's just what it is to watch your historical moment here on Earth. Not everybody has that actually. I also have that interest. I pay attention to the news. I have for a very, Very long time. I just have a fascination. It is like a Shakespearean play. It's comic and it's tragic and it's filled with all kinds of drama and all kinds of human, The range of human, The spectrum of consciousness. It's fascinating. And I find it fascinating and I am kind of glued to it. But I also see it from a very impersonal vantage point. I see that we humans have, Through evolution, We have come to the exact point that we were always headed. And that's another place that people get really stuck in this huge if only story, If only this, And if only that, If only we'd taken this other turn, If only there hadn't been agriculture, Which allowed us to overpopulate, If only we'd all learned to meditate, If only there'd been matriarchal societies. It wasn't. This is what happened. This is the evolution that rolled out. And it wasn't just one tiny change along the way. It was countless quintillions, Actually infinite numbers probably of, Not infinite, But quintillions, Let's say, Of little motions along the way that all piled up to get us to this spot. And here we are. So it's a kind of surrender, Not in apathy, But a surrender to, Okay, Now we are where we were headed. Now what? Well, Yeah, You can have some little responsibility because there are people in your life who rely on you for a certain steadiness and for kindness and for love. You can just keep doing that as your responsibility. Leave behind a fragrance of love when you go. That's very nice. Good enough, Really. And, You know, Good enough. You know, Good enough. And in the meantime, You really don't have to justify your interest or justify your bearing witness. It doesn't have to be hooked to some gigantic action that's going to change the course of history. It's just a bearing witness. It's not justification that I want. I think what I'm noticing is that it's possible to get totally lost in it. I notice that if I ration the amount of news that I have every day, I actually feel better. Yes, Then I'm totally with you there. I'm really am. Yeah, You have to sometimes treat it like an addiction and definitely get back. And I think that's a really wise thing to do. And as far as family, Well, For me, Family relationship, I mean, That's one of the things that's happened that my family relations have become clearly much more important. You know, Mutual support has become much more important. But as a consequence of that, People are asking me questions. So part of the responsibility that I feel is to inform myself. You know, The sort of uneasiness and like, How long is it going to go on like this? Do you think this is a good thing to do? Do you think that's a good thing to do? All of those sorts of things. Yes. But I really liked what you said. And I agree. And I think I've got to that place myself that in the end, We just have to accept this moment in history and go with it. Yes. You know, There's absolutely no point in wishing something different had happened at some point in the past. This is it. Here we are. Here we are. Yeah. Yeah. I used to know you in Berkeley when you were at the seventh heaven. Oh, Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, My question you partially answered in a kind of related to James, But I really I'm in such a privileged position. I live in Mendocino. It's beautiful. I have a partner here. I mean, So much is I'm really lucky. And after reading your article about facing extinction, There's a part of me that's kind of given up on any activism. And then there's a part of me that's kind of scanning a little bit feeling a little maybe guilty that things are so good for me. And what can I do? And also the belief that you have to do something instead of as you said, Well, Even prayer or sending meta to a person is person is is a very valuable action. But there's a kind of maybe hardwired part of me that thinks I should do something. That's my although I really I mean, I let go of a lot of doing. Yeah. Yeah, Well, There's still plenty of doing that goes on as long as you're alive. And you're interacting with at least one other person we can see. And perhaps you're connected to a larger community, Even if at this point, Mostly on phones or on screens. So there is, You know, You are, I would assume getting up and about the day. So make your make your offerings freely given and not hooked to some outcome. Just whatever, Whatever you're doing, So called in the day, And by the way, I did not say I've never suggested prayer. Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, I'm not saying you did. Yeah. Okay. It was it was I knew you actually didn't mean it that way. But it kind of came out that way. So I wanted to just clarify for other people. Yeah, I've never suggested prayer. And I've hardly ever suggested meta. So yes, I am much more about kind of living in that space in yourself. Like the only prayer that I could ever imagine is thank you, And not to anything in particular, Right? Just, You know, Just as an expression of gratitude. So in your just going about your day, Make your efforts holy. I mean that by make them all just offering. You know, If you're making a meal, Even if it's just for yourself, Right, Do it well, Do it, Do it with precision and presence and gratitude. And the same with eating the meal. And all the little motions of the day, All of the moving through. Now that's a high demand, You obviously many, Many moments of the day, You won't be in that in that kind of state. But if it's your intention to be there more, It will induce a lot of well being. Right, A lot of well being just every little thing. A lot of people are telling you that you're doing something. A lot of people are telling me they have gardens and some people who have now gardens that they had never had a garden before, But they've decided this is not a bad idea at a time like this. And they're just talking to me about how wonderful it is to be working with plants, You know, And just I have some plants growing on my decks, And also in my yard, But I have some plants in the yard, They're all wild. But the ones on the decks, I do tend. And I just love seeing new buds and new sprouts and new little, You know, Just little surprising things coming up. And it's, It's strangely exciting for for how simple and you know, And basic it is. And so all of those things that that you can you can make your own life sparkle in its own way. Right? It doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be some grand gesture for some other future time. Yeah. And, And if if, If it is to be that you don't actually have to have been planning it that way. It can kind of evolve that way. So many beautiful things do they grow on their own bit by bit, You know. So I don't know if this is helpful, But it's just my way of saying that one of the I think frustrations for so many people at this time is that, You know, Things are going awry in many ways for lots of people. And there's a feeling of like, Helplessness or and kind of fiery burning thing of like, We've got to do something. My, I would say, Keep that keep all of that very, Very local, Super local. Like whether it's just in your own family or in your community of friends. In fact, Speaking of bearing witness, I just yesterday got an email from some friends here, They're starting a group called bearing witness peer group. And it's just going to be the hang out and and share, Share this. But this is just an example. You can find it on the website. This is just an example. You can find your own ways of having community in some form or other. And being helpful in that community in simple ways. And, And let that be enough. This big picture, Like we're saying, This has been a juggernaut rolling for a long, Long time. And I don't personally mean I don't think anyone election or person in power or new technology or I doubt anything is going to much change the course. So let's see. Let's see what happens. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you so much. This is you know, This is great. Great talking to you. After some time. Yes. And it's really good to hear, You know, Some of the questions and comments. And, You know, I, I just want to share a little bit of my struggle in this time right now. Yes. You know, A few, Three years or so back, I made this career choice to shift into a business that was more friendly to environment. And, You know, It, My whole justification for making this big giant switch was that I was, I think of myself as a more empathetic person. And, You know, I feel empathy towards everything, You know, Human beings and nature and animals. And I somehow wanted to do something that came out of that empathy. And, But over the last few months, Especially since the pandemic has started, You know, This business is obviously facing some rough patch. And even before that, You know, Being in this business, I had to do so many things and choices. They were not related, Or they are not coming out of empathy. I had to push people to get things done. And, You know, Recently, I had to tell someone that we won't be able to employ them. And, You know, It's, It was, It was hard. And I tried to make it as easy as possible. And I said, This is only temporary. And now when that person calls, I struggle to pick up their phone call. And I don't understand where to draw the line. Or is it, Am I on the right track? Because, You know, Originally, I was trying to do something good, But so many things I do push people to get things done or, You know, Tell them that we won't be able to employ, They just don't seem very empathetic. And I don't know where to draw the line. You know, Sometimes I just feel like maybe I should just go back to my old job that was very easy. Someone told me what to do. And I did it and went home at five o'clock. And it was after that I could do whatever I want. So, I've been fortunate enough to be in a home and, You know, Where I have roof over my head and food on my plate, That my struggle is far more abstract than other people. But still, That struggle is real to me. So, Sure. And it's a very kind reflection that you're having about the difference between your good intentions and then feeling sometimes when those things you want are not being, You're not quite living them. But I would propose to you that when you're in service to a greater good, Sometimes you have to make hard decisions along the way. And not everybody will be happy about them. And that's I think every project that is in service to the greater good has those components. So, It does take a certain alignment of heart in yourself to ask yourself, Okay, I'm going to have to do something that's going to be perceived as a hurtful thing to the person who's not going to get what they want. In this case, Not going to get the job or people who, As you say, You're having to kind of be a bit hard on them to get things done. They may feel like a sting here and there. But whoops, I've lost your picture here. Hold on. There you are. But if your commitment to a bigger vision is strong, Which I sense it is, You kind of have to sort of lash yourself to the mast to get it done. And there will be times and things that you have to do and say that are not commensurate with your nature, Where it just feels like you'd rather just be kind all the time and let everyone have what they want. So, It may be, And you will see, That it's too hard for you to do those kinds of things. And there's no shame in that at all. It may be that you don't want to have to say no to people. You don't want to have to disappoint. And you don't want to have to be the tough guy in order to have this bigger vision be enacted. But to have this deep commitment is quite beautiful. I can really sense that. And it's certainly okay also to have just a job in which you go home and the day is over and you're not having to live it all the time. So, You'll know what, Again, Being true to your nature and making no apologies, It's no failure either way. It's just a bowing to truth. That's not a failure. I've had to walk away from some things in my life. And I've had to see that it's like Gandhi said, My commitment is to truth, Not to consistency. So, Okay. All right, Dear. So, Good to see you. Back to what you were talking about at the beginning. I find there's a balance at times that's hard between talking about oneself and yet not. So, I'm so terrified of boring people that I'm always cutting to the chase and that they're always saying, Wait a minute, You left out, You know, With this A, B, C, And D. And also, I'm finding, Maybe I'm noticing it more and recently, But people, You can't get out with the 10 words before you're interrupted and then with the other story of me. And then I'm sitting there. And it's just, I don't know, That's just increasing that nobody, People don't have as many people to talk to now or something. And so, I don't interrupt them. And why don't I? Because I'm sitting there angry that this has happened. You know, And so, It just ends up with, You know, Feeling, I just don't want to keep having these conversations. Yeah, Well, I would also find that tedious if you're with people who don't listen and who just want to talk about themselves all the time. Unless it's absolutely fascinating, Right? You know, If it's high drama in the Shakespearean play and has insight and all kinds of adventure in it. But yeah, I understand. And you don't have to feel that you have to do that. I think one of the great skills in life, The skill of conversation is knowing the rhythm of when to listen and when to talk and when to listen again and when to talk and to follow up and to say things that allow the person to know that you're actually hearing what they're saying. That's a beautiful skill in life. And we love being around people who have that skill. And if you don't happen to be, There's certain people in your life you're kind of stuck with, Either they're old, Old, Long friends or they're family. And some of those people might have that kind of tendency. But in your own choice of who you're going to be speaking with, You can be more, I don't know, Picky. I think also that this is not to make some sort of, I'm not suggesting that it's wrong to speak about yourself in company. It is the way we share a story. And in many ways, It's the way that we let someone know, Oh, I understand you. Here's something similar that I've gone through. Right, Exactly. It's a way of showing direct empathy through your own life experience. So I'm more talking about just when it goes into the really obsessional level where you just feel that you're standing in front of someone and all you are really to them is a pair of ears. You're like a warm body with a pair of ears. And whatever else about you is not that interesting to them. You're a listener. So yeah, That gets kind of tiring. My goodness, It's wonderful to see you. Maybe been 30 years. I can't remember. Back in Portland. You're in Portland. Okay. Well, I'm in Eugene, But I met you at Brighton Bush. You were with Jean Chung. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. We went to India together to visit Papa G because of you too, Which was a whole nother adventure. Oh my goodness. Great. So here's the thing for me right now is that I work in a library. It's a public place. And we have been home for three months. And during that time, I have sort of calibrated myself down to the level of what my essential humanness is without other humans. Working with the public is a particular challenge for me. I'm an introvert, But I pass well as an extrovert. And so what's happening for me is that during the time that I've been here by myself working at home, Doing a lot of professional development, My heart is like my chest is just opened and my heart is just so raw and open and it's beautiful and I don't want to change it. But here I am going back to work. We've just started with curbside hold pickup and the few people that are coming are also going through their own emotional stuff. And a lot of that is heavy, Heavy anger and a lot of fear. There's been fistfights. There's been people screaming at each other. There's been and I'm a person who's very, Very good at conflict. I don't shy away from it. I but I'm noticing how it's affecting me in such a visceral way now that my heart is just really all the way open and I don't want to close it up again. I'm realizing how much energy I had before for protecting myself, You know, Because people come and people go and they're horrible. Humans are pretty horrible, But I love them too. And so what I've been thinking a lot about lately is about ways to be present and open in the face of the true desperation in the world right now. I don't want to close off from it. I don't want to shy away from it, But it does take its toll. And I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that when we're working with like direct, Like it's like a fire hose of emotion. Yeah. What my thoughts are is while I really appreciate your understanding and your wanting to stay very, Very open, I do think that perhaps there are circumstances in which boundaries are appropriate and that you would have a certain kind of a gentle sort of veil around yourself of protection so that you move away from danger and you move away from taking a direct hit, If possible, Of someone's rage, That you don't have to be a martyr in this, Right? You can have understanding from a distance if possible, Or even a psychological distance that it's fair to get out of the way of a storm, Right? That's only smart. When a storm is coming, You don't just stand out in the open and say, Okay, I'm going to open to you storm, Right? And you can see all of this in a very impersonal way, Melissa. You can see both their rage and desperation and fear impersonally and have great compassion. And you can see your own need for some withdrawal from that also with compassion. I'm not saying that you run away necessarily, I'm whatever these words mean to you and however it would play out. I'm just hearing, And correct me if I'm wrong, A way that you might be making a demand on yourself to buck up and be in the fullness of your love. There's a story that one of my friends tells, A true story of being in India in the early 70s. She was in a rickshaw in Calcutta coming back at the end of the day from the train station. She was going to see her teacher. It was actually a person drawn rickshaw. A man leapt from the crowd onto the rickshaw and was struggling with her for her bag. It was quite a struggle. Somehow the rickshaw driver managed to get the guy off of her and she was really shaken with it. Really shaken. So she gets to her teacher and she tells him this story. He says, Oh my dear, With all the love in your heart, You should have taken your umbrella and hit that man on the head. With all the love in your heart, Protect yourself and your children. With all the love in your heart, Protect yourself. So say something like that. Yeah, I love that. Just a couple of comments. I was talking with my neighbor yesterday and she was saying how waking up every day was almost like a nightmare because it was the same as the day before, As the day before, As the day before. I've heard this from other people, Kind of like it's a groundhog day. There's no demarcation anymore between maybe the weekend and the weekday, Especially if you're not working or if you're not going out and seeing friends and doing what you used to do. I was just thinking about, You know, Things are never going to be the way they were and we don't know how they're going to be in the future. And what a great way to be in the present. You know, You're forced to be in the present. Yes, Kicking and screaming, But here we are. It just, It gives me the chills. So just to think about how I used to live partially in the past, Maybe more in the present, Or more in the future and then sometimes in the present. And now it's like, Well, You know, Tomorrow, I don't know what tomorrow is going to be like, But it might be a lot like today. And what a liberating experience that is, As hard as it is sometimes. It feels very, You know, We'll never go back to the way it was. Yeah, That's very likely. Yeah, You know, Gary, I've also been thinking about how we're living, Even though we live in very modern circumstances, But in a way, Like people have always lived long ago, It was a kind of each day had a similarity. And we've been used to this cornucopia of experiences and stuff to entertain ourselves endlessly and to dream about going anywhere we want, Anytime we want. And all of that's off the table. But we are living now, Like you're saying, In a much more fully present. There is something liberating about having a sameness to the day and a quiet and just it rolls out. I'm finding it, I lose track of time, Of the days and the weeks and, You know, And there's something very calming to my nervous system about that. I'm not on the clock as much, You know. Yeah.