Art That Is Born From Silence

Excerpted from Dharma Dialogues with Catherine Ingram. Recorded in Lennox Head, Australia in May 2018. From the opening talk: “I was on the phone with one of my friends yesterday, and she said that she had a dharma question for me. She asked what I thought of the notion of the awareness of awareness that a lot of teachers speak about, that there is an awareness that knows that you are aware.”

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep.

I'm your host,

Katherine Ingram.

The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues held in Lenox Head,

Australia in May of 2018.

It's called Art That is Born from Silence.

I was on the phone with one of my friends yesterday and she said,

I have a Dharma question for you.

And I said,

Okay.

She said,

What is it?

What do you think about the whole notion of the awareness of awareness that a lot of teachers speak about?

That there's an awareness that knows you're aware.

And I said,

Well,

I used to entertain those kinds of thoughts long ago.

I used to have those kinds of discussions and try to imagine what people meant when they said that and have a sense of the kind of witnessing of yourself in some sort of activity that you're aware of and so on.

But really,

It's a bit too complicated for my taste.

It's a bit too overthinking.

And I go back to the simplicity of just presence,

Of just being,

Of just the simplicity of awareness.

Right?

You don't have to make it a gigantic thing.

And she said,

Well,

Then it just gets down to really ordinary life,

Right?

That you're aware in ordinary activity or ordinary when you're sitting,

You're just sitting and just being and just breathing.

And I said,

Yes,

That is what it gets down to.

And she said,

But I thought it would be something a little more exalted,

Something more inspired or something more profound.

Yes.

So I considered that and I said,

Well,

I think that profundity comes as you're sitting in those,

As you're in that kind of flow of beingness,

As you're in that simplicity,

As you're resting in presence and going about your day in that.

It's a ground for a lot of insight to arise.

You're living in quiet,

You're living in meditation.

You don't have to expect some kind of mind gyrations of the awareness is now watching the awareness and it's going to get us through this portal into enlightenment.

And it's so much of an unnecessary labyrinth.

My view is that the whole thing is the other direction.

It's downstream.

It's not having to overcomplicate.

And it's like our teacher,

Poonjaji,

Used to always say,

Just stop,

Make no effort.

No mind.

Right?

It's that.

Then you're just here in the most easy and ordinary ways because it's a beautiful kind of ordinariness.

People think of ordinary as like old dull rocks or something.

It's not that.

It's a beautiful kind of awake ordinariness that all the great ones have recommended.

But people want shiny baubles and they want some kind of flashy thing.

And so unnecessary.

So it just comes down to really regular activities,

Conversations,

Your own quiet,

You're taking a bath,

You're cooking some eggs.

It's like that.

It's just through the day,

Just your own beautiful moments of this life,

This precious fleeting life.

It's a little bit sad to me somehow how many people I've known over the many,

Many,

Many years who are striving on these projects of like these spiritual attainment projects.

They've been striving for 40 years.

I imagine they will strive on till the last days and in a way miss the show because it's as though they really always have something in the back of the mind that they are needing to get to that's some other time,

Some other future moment.

And it's really these moments with nothing enhanced,

Doesn't need any enhancement.

So when you're really resting in that,

When you hear the twittering of the bird,

You're just hearing the twittering of the bird.

You're not even naming it and you don't have to say to yourself,

Now I'm aware of myself hearing the twittering.

None of that is necessary.

It's a full immersion.

Cue the twittering.

Okay,

So if anyone has anything you'd like to discuss,

Please feel free.

I was just thinking how bizarre it is that you get to the point of realizing that you're not the mind and then it actually doesn't even work anymore.

And I think it could be at the point where you're really okay with it not working,

But that does kind of set off a little bit of a,

It triggers a bit of security issues around just being able to function and just being able to make one's way through life.

Because we tend to rely on it doing its job.

I mean it's one thing to know that it's not the be all and end all of the whole reality.

No,

You want it to still work.

It needs just to work.

Just keep quiet and work.

Yeah.

I mean to employ it for functionality or for relationships or for remembering that you have a dental appointment and so on,

Of course,

Is a great privilege.

And for those who don't have that ability anymore,

It's generally difficult.

Someone asked about this in Melbourne.

And they were saying,

Well,

There probably are cases of Alzheimer's where people are perfectly happy in it that they have,

That they've lost that capacity,

But they're not really suffering.

But of course,

We've all seen cases where that is not the case or as the dementia is beginning,

It can be very scary and very hard for functioning.

So to not make light of that in any way.

The mind is a perfectly good employee,

Not a good boss.

You know,

And it's nice to have one that works.

And I can speak for myself as I have gotten older.

My mind is dropping more balls than it used to.

You know,

It just does.

And I have to roll with that and compensate in various ways.

I have to write things down a lot and then remember to look at the thing that I wrote down,

Which sometimes I don't remember to do.

And so,

You know,

There are all those ways that we try to manage.

You know,

I've been reflecting on,

You know,

It's a subject I speak a lot about,

About letting go.

I feel that that's one of the capacities that does increase with age and with focus and with understanding rather.

But I've been reflecting on just the all kinds of components about letting go.

One of which is that it's not that one lets go in any kind of uncaring way or that it's not that you let go and then it's just gone.

You know,

There's still some relationship with that which has gone,

But there's a true recognition that it is gone,

If you're following me.

So that there is the letting go,

But it's almost your letting go with an honoring that stays alive in you.

Whether it's something rather mundane,

Like a place you used to frequent or,

You know,

An album you used to like or a house you used to live in or things more profound,

Like people who have passed on,

Passed away.

That there's this sense in which the love of it all lives in you.

And yet there's nothing that's still sticking because it's,

Because you know it's gone.

You know,

Sal?

Just these qualities of letting go and the understandings around what that means.

Yeah,

Even letting old struggles just be at peace.

Yes,

Absolutely.

Yeah.

All the way,

All of the whole wash of the life,

The way that it rolled out,

The sparkles and the hard times and the hard rapids and the creatures that were there one minute and you turned around and they're gone.

And all of it,

You know,

That there's this beauty that lives in the heart that,

You know,

Is,

It's,

Yeah,

The word honoring I just said,

But it comes back.

It's like a bow,

You know,

Like a bow.

It's such a more gracious way to be honoring or in gratitude for all that has been rather than regret,

Remorse or lacking.

It's just a very subtle shift,

But it makes such a difference in the perspective,

Right?

Yeah.

Of what you're living with.

And then I guess letting go of that too.

Yeah.

But I love that you just said with what you're living with,

Like even what is here now,

Understanding that it too will be part of that wash of this life,

You know.

So it makes it all the more precious while it is still here.

Well,

Kath,

I'm reading a book called Being Aware of Being Aware.

Right in it.

A small book.

And I haven't finished the book,

So I can't relate to you.

But basically,

From what I've gathered so far,

It's like a movie screen.

So what he's making you aware of is the screen,

Not the movie.

And relate to it.

It's an image Poonjaji used quite a lot.

Yeah.

He may have lifted that one.

We three all would have heard Poonjaji say it many,

Many times.

Yeah.

Yes.

But go ahead.

I'll just keep reading.

I must admit,

It does catch me occasionally and I just sit with something which is subtle,

But it just changes the perspective a little bit for me.

Yes.

Well,

Good.

Yeah.

And it is good.

Yeah.

But I guess my hesitation about using those kinds of concepts is that it tends to employ the mind a lot.

It tends to make the mind activate into a kind of conceptual realm of is this awareness,

Watching awareness,

And just all of that kind of languaging really starts to kick up.

And so if that's not what is happening for you,

If you're reading this book and you're finding yourself incredibly alive in presence,

And I would even say in a quiet way,

Without conceptualizing,

If the book is triggering that kind of experience for you,

Making everything more simple and easy.

It's kind of like running into a wall because the concepts take you so far with the mind and then it stops because it's so black and white and there's nowhere to go.

There's no concept that can be formed from what's written.

So you're just left with that and it seems to be continually through the book.

Okay.

So it's somehow— Who knows?

No,

No,

No.

It's interesting.

Somehow landing your awareness into a kind of simplicity.

Absolutely.

Well and good.

Yeah,

Sure.

I guess I was speaking more from my own experience that those kinds of conceptualizations don't tend to— Yeah.

For me?

It's not filed away in memory.

Okay,

Good.

There's no memory involved in it.

Good.

I get it.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I put it down,

It's over.

Yeah,

Perfect.

Yeah.

Those are the only kinds of Dharma books I would recommend reading is that—not to fill your mind with more concepts,

But to stop the mind.

Yeah,

Exactly.

At least stop the mind from the spiritual program.

Always when I come here,

I just am so grateful.

I'm so grateful to be able to hear about Puntaji and that you all had a connection.

All three of us spent a lot of time.

Yes.

Well,

Yeah.

It's beautiful to be in the presence of this energy.

And yeah,

You know,

What you were sharing earlier,

Catherine,

About the striving and the efforting.

And I did so much of that,

So much of that.

And not so much now,

But it does make me pause and reflect,

Where am I doing that?

Where am I doing that now?

Yeah.

And it's good just to be with that.

Are you doing that now?

Definitely not like I was before.

I mean,

Yeah,

I don't have a—on a spiritual level,

Some kind of goalpost or anything like that,

That's not there.

In terms of creating in the world,

Like,

Yeah,

There's always something that needs to be done.

But I'm okay with that because I've eventually figured out how to do that at my own pace.

And to—really,

It's like,

It just feels like art.

Do you know what I mean?

It's like a joy to—I mean,

There's a lot of growth in it for me and a lot of movement in a way internally of,

You know,

How do I need to be to be a real channel,

You know,

And to not be in the control seat.

And yeah,

That sort of narrator or commentary,

You know,

I'm quite aware of when—of becoming—being becoming more aware of when the commentary is starting to take over and when it's my soul just letting it all happen through me.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

And,

You know,

Making effort in the realm of creativity and in just expressing oneself is beautiful.

You have to make effort in that realm,

You know,

If you're going to offer anything.

That does require effort.

It doesn't have to require straining or a kind of ego-based effort.

It can be coming from a different type of motivation.

But so,

You know,

Not to assume that one makes no effort in any domain,

But in the so-called self-improvement spiritual domain,

Poonjaji's very clear message over and over was to make no effort in that realm.

Make no effort.

Yeah.

And people will make effort of that.

It's amazing.

People will say,

How do you do that?

And how do you,

You know,

And they'll find tricky ways to be efforting,

You know,

But— And I—when I relate what I just heard then and what you've been saying to,

You know,

Doing a physical practice,

Like a yoga practice,

You know,

There's the striving way of being in it,

Which is not really being in it.

Right.

You know?

And then there's meeting oneself in it,

Inside of it.

Right.

And beautiful things happen.

Yes.

When that's the case.

Yes,

Yes,

Absolutely.

All creativity,

When it's informed by that kind of simplicity,

Actually,

Is just greatly enhanced.

You know,

A lot of the greatest art,

Just through the ages,

You know,

Just the elegance of simplicity.

And it's usually you can feel how clear the message was being,

You know,

Coming through and being delivered.

Right.

Yeah.

I sometimes tell this story.

I told it in my book.

In the 70s,

I was with my boyfriend at the time,

Although he had been my meditation teacher prior to that.

But anyway,

We were in Boston and we went to this art exhibit that we heard about called Zen Ga Nanga.

And it was this beautiful exhibit of 15th century landscape paintings by Zen masters.

And it was on the third floor of a magnificent museum.

And we went to see this.

And it was like each of those landscapes was like being in heaven.

I mean,

But there was hardly anything on the image,

You know,

Just be like a monk looking at the moon,

You know,

Or most of it was white space.

But whatever was on there had this kind of simple beauty.

And it was like a transmission across the centuries of what a still mind would produce.

Right?

So this whole room full of these images.

Some had color.

Most were black and white.

We went from that floor,

We walked down this long,

Big,

Magnificent staircase to the next floor down,

Which was Renaissance paintings.

And it almost felt shocking to my system.

We actually did a little quick walk around.

But the opulence and the religious iconography and the beheadings and the everybody was in clothing and massive big clothing up to their necks and the heaviness and all other faces looked just grim.

And it was such a contrast,

Right?

And it was this,

It was obviously a much younger person at the time.

It taught me something about art.

And it taught me something about my taste in art,

Which has to do with feeling into the place that the artist was sitting and preferring art that came from a certain kind of deep quiet and clarity and love.

So since that time,

I've been around people who live in the so-called art world.

Right?

And I've sometimes felt quite at odds with certain types of presenting of art that is recognized as so-called great art.

But I look at it and just look,

I just see a troubled mind.

Especially in that contrast.

And certainly in that contrast,

But ever since,

You know.

And so it's just a preference.

I'm not saying I certainly don't know much about the art world.

I'm just saying my own preference in art is that I do think a lot of the great art of the treasures of the world happen to have been informed by that.

A lot of it,

Not all.

But a lot of the architecture,

For instance,

You know,

You stand in the Pantheon in Rome,

For instance,

If you've been there.

You know,

Just.

.

.

Oh,

No,

Not Rome,

Actually.

Yeah.

Athens,

Yes.

That's Parthenon,

Yeah.

But in Rome,

The Pantheon,

Which is this most amazing,

Simple,

But beautiful structure,

You know,

And an architectural wonder for its time than when it was originally built.

So,

You know,

It's just my preference about art,

But it sort of translates to my preference about kind of everything.

Yeah,

I so understand.

Yeah,

I bet you do.

And my preference in terms of spiritual considerations as well.

Just,

You know,

It can't get simple enough,

You know,

In terms of this really,

You don't have to make some gigantic maze of the mind,

You know.

Leave aside that endless project that fools errand,

You know.

It's beautiful.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

I don't know why this word doesn't bother me,

But I just need some clarity on it.

The word soul.

Soul.

Everyone uses the word soul.

Everyone uses the word soul.

Everyone seems really confident in knowing what soul is.

And I actually don't.

I have the best answer.

Thank you.

I'm glad of that.

Do you like soul music?

Sure.

Yeah,

I do.

Okay,

That's it.

Okay.

Because when you say soul music,

Right,

When we say soul music,

There's something about that that you understand,

Right?

I don't mean just African American or reggae or any kind of music.

It can be soul music,

Right?

Because it moves something in you that is this mysterious thing that music can do to us,

Right?

It's a language that we all speak.

It's a universal language that does that,

That is somehow our brains have evolved to respond to it in a really powerful way.

You know,

You can hear a few notes and it can make you cry,

Right?

That's amazing when you think about it,

The way that music is speaking to something in you that is way,

Way deeper than the concepts.

So for me,

That's how I understand this word soul.

I don't believe in entities,

Right?

I don't believe entities are floating around.

Nothing like that.

It's simply about this capacity that we all have,

I would say almost everyone on earth almost have for a kind of soulfulness.

I don't want to make a meal of it,

But so it's collective.

We all share the one soul.

No,

I didn't say that.

No.

But go ahead.

Most of us would be triggered by music,

For example.

So therefore,

We're all part of that soul.

Well,

Again,

It's not externalized to one soul or floating around.

No.

I'm saying that there's some way that we have evolved to be very responsive to music in some part of ourselves that's very,

Very deep in that we can't really explain.

Okay.

That's with music.

So music outside,

I'll say goodbye to music for a sec.

Okay.

Sure.

And soul connection.

Soul connection.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sharing a brotherhood or whatever.

Yes.

Some sort of connection with others that you indefatigally know is the same or there's this common ground underneath.

Yes.

Now,

Is that soul?

Well,

Again,

Do we have to name that?

Well,

No.

It's just a word that gets floated around a lot.

Then take it as your own.

All of these words that we use,

We give meaning to them,

Right?

We have been,

Like,

Lots of things that you might take for granted that we agree on,

The color yellow,

You might be seeing it very differently than I am,

Right?

So the word soul might mean something to you.

Yeah.

And it might mean something slightly different to me and slightly different to everyone.

But that we can have a sense that we're sharing something very profound.

We can have a sense that we're looking at a sunset and it's triggering all those feelings or hearing music that's really moving us in a certain way.

I think,

You know,

Let me quote this quote.

You've heard me say it before,

But this is a moment to hear it again.

A slight revision of Shakespeare.

A rose by no name at all would smell as sweet.

Do you know the original quote?

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

I don't know the quote,

But I understand.

So the quote is a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

I say a rose by no name at all would smell as sweet.

So we don't have to name things particularly,

Right?

We don't have to name it.

It can just be this mysterious understanding of,

You know,

So hooking on a word like soul,

Because soul is used religiously a lot.

It is,

Yeah.

I would say don't bother with that particular definition because it's just too,

You know,

It's like a little personification living in our beings that passes on life to life to life.

So if you leave aside that,

Then it just comes down to using it in this kind of casual way,

Like soul music or it's good for the soul,

You know?

Right?

I hear you.

It hasn't really answered my question in a way.

I think of the word soulless.

And that also is a very clear meaning as well.

I use that word a lot to describe certain things.

It's soulless.

Yeah,

Soulless.

Or loveless.

Or loveless,

Yeah.

It's another word that means the same.

Could be.

Could be interchangeable,

Yeah.

I'll leave it there,

Kath.

No,

No.

You had another question.

Well,

As you know,

I'm doing a course in Malayani at the moment and the word soul came up there and in the group it was quite a different meaning for lots of different people.

And there was no consensus as to what it actually was.

Yes.

And we all went away with,

Well,

Whatever you've got,

That's it.

That's soul for you.

But I've just come across it a lot lately and I'm like,

Well,

Okay.

I honestly don't understand it.

I can feel,

Of course I can feel and experience what I would,

I guess,

Call soulfulness.

But yeah,

I don't know.

It's just one of those mysterious things.

I love your dedication to wanting to understand certain things that.

.

.

Oh,

Don't start me.

I think you're well started.

But no,

I appreciate it.

And I was so that way myself for so long.

What I can say about this and about your other question,

And I hope it's helpful,

Is simply that a lot of this you don't actually need to know.

Yeah,

I get that.

And you don't have to bother using your precious moments to think about things that you're not going to be able to figure out.

Now,

I,

Having said what I've just said to you,

Believe me,

I did do that with my time and life for a long,

Long time.

I really did.

I was a seeker.

I wanted to know things.

I wanted to have big debates.

And I did that for decades.

At this point,

I'm starting to look at my days.

This may seem slightly mercenary.

As I am looking at the economy of my time,

I'm realizing the most incredibly and precious economy I am living on is my time and how I'm using my awareness during my time.

And I realize both of those things are limited.

I only have certain amount of awareness per day.

Eight hours of the day I have to sleep.

Right?

So there's two-thirds of a day left.

How am I using my time and my awareness in that period of time?

And I'm becoming kind of savage about it.

You know,

I realize I don't really want to use my awareness in any kind of unnecessary ways or any kind of thing that's kicking up a lot of unnecessary conceptualization,

Thinking about things I really can't know much about or do anything about.

And so it throws you down to real basic,

Basic stuff.

You know,

It's basically I'm also aware that that kind of like being loving and being kind and being a little bit helpful if possible and generous and all those good things we all like is really all that I have to bother with here.

Like I don't have to bother with anything else.

Fair enough.

And that my whatever insights drop into my awareness,

You know,

Insight is helpful.

And,

You know,

Like some you get a little aha moment now and again,

They're helpful.

But.