Understanding Attachment Styles With Dr. Jessica Waldron

Attachment styles are a habitual pattern of relating to others. Specifically, significant relationships like a parent, a romantic partner, or maybe even a best friend. Mostly we are talking about how one responds relationally in these relationships around points of connection and disconnection.

Transcript

Hi, I'm Cassie, Host of the Curiosity Junkie podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, Please hit the subscribe button to follow us and receive new episodes each week. If you really enjoy the podcast and you're feeling generous, Please hit the donate button. Today's guest is a clinical psychologist. Please welcome Dr. Jessica Waldron to the podcast. Hi, Jessica. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you. Good to be back. Yes, I'm excited. We are going to be talking about attachment styles today. And for those who are out there and have no idea what that is, You're going to learn so much. I'm excited to share this. Let's start with that, Jessica. What are attachment styles? Yeah, It's a simple and complex question. Well, Like most things in the area of human psyche. So attachment styles kind of boiled down is a habitual pattern of relating to others specifically like close or significant others. We're talking about those really significant relationships in our life, Like a parent or a romantic partner spouse, Maybe a best friend, Particularly around like the adolescent years when that's like, You know, Such a big part of your life. And mostly we're talking about how one responds relationally in these relationships around points of connection and disconnection. So as we talk more, It'll make more sense as I give examples. But basically what do we do when we start to feel insecure or disconnected or that sense of closeness or trust or safety with a partner feels threatened at all? So as a child, Again, We'll talk more about the attachment styles developed really early on, Like right out the gate or right out the womb, I should say. I wondered about that. Yeah. So they start with that earliest relationship, Typically with a mother or it could be with a father or grandparent, But that mother child relationship is a really significant one as most of us know whether or not the mother was there or not. Right. That relationship is significant. And so they start to develop these attachment styles. They tend to stay somewhat stable across our lives, Although they can change. And so there are four different attachment styles that have come out of the research. And the research started with children. We now understand that our attachment style or this need to stay close or connected to one significant other is a biological innate survival need that we all as humans possess. So if anyone says they don't need anybody, They probably are just protecting their emotional, You know, Probably have been deeply wounded and are protecting themselves. But yeah, This is survival. And we can understand it really clearly, Like when we think about a newborn baby and a mother or a father parent of how that would be survival food, Water, Basic needs, Right. That baby needs to be like right on that parent. But we do find even as adults we still have this innate need to be close, To have a sense of security, To feel confident and secure going out into the world and feeling kind of secure and calm and at ease even in our own experience of ourselves. So like I was saying, There's four different styles. The sort of ideal one is what we call secure attachment. And that is basically that your attachment person or figure we'll call them was available to you, Right. So as a child, You cried, That person showed up and soothed you whether that was a cry for food, A cry for comfort, A cry out of being scared, They were attuned to your needs and they met them. That's super regulating for a child. And they develop this kind of calm sense of self. When you know you have that other person, Which we'll refer to as kind of like a secure base, You feel more confident to go out into the world. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And so you're like, Okay, It's very regulating to know that that person is accessible to you and offers reassurance and engagement and soothing. And so then you're like, Your insights feel all regulated and you feel good to go out into the world and be yourself. And you feel like your emotions make sense because when somebody, When you have an emotion and then someone is able to attune to it and meet that need and soothe that emotion, You're like, Oh, Well, It was validated, Right? They were like, Yeah, That makes sense. You were hungry. You were eating food. And you're like, Oh, My emotions make sense. When someone doesn't validate that feeling though, You start to get this internal confusion of your experience of emotions because you're like, I'm hungry, But no one's bringing me food. And am I not supposed to be hungry? Is being hungry bad? Like why is my needs not important? You know, Like all this complicated stuff starts getting wired in. So the secure attachment is the ideal one. And we, You know, As we go from a child relationship into an adult relationship, Again, That's like I'm in a place of need or vulnerability or pain or hurt. I reach out to my partner. They respond, They're available. They engage with me. It helps regulate me. I feel calm moving on. Right? So you're able to, Or if you even have a rupture in a relationship, Because just if you have a secure attachment doesn't mean there's no ruptures, Conflict or whatever, You just feel more confident that like, That doesn't mean the relationship's going to fall apart and this person's going to abandon you and leave you if there's tension. Yeah. You don't go to the worst case scenario. Yeah. Yeah. You're not panicking. You're like, Okay, There's some conflict here. We're going to have to resolve it, But I'm not panicking that my like most important other is going to take off. So that's like the secure attachment. I'm kind of what we're hoping for. And, You know, In a relationship or with a parent, Then the other three are under the bucket of insecure attachment styles. And so these are how we respond when we feel that threat to that closeness or connection with that significant other. But there isn't as much responsiveness, Accessibility, Reassurance, The things we need to feel calm. Those don't happen. How do we respond? How do we manage not getting that soothing and that thing that we're needing from that other person? So one way is what's called an anxious attachment. And so for that person who has an anxious attachment, When they feel that close other that connection being threatened or whatever, They're glomming, Right? They're reaching out to get any, Anything to get a response from that person. But we'll call it as like attachment panic. It's literally like panic because it is like a survival thing. And so it literally is like, I have to do anything to get this person's attention. Yeah, Absolutely. So in the adult relationships, Like that often looks like a partner who's criticizing, Judging, Yelling, Calling a bunch of times, Anything to get this non-responsive partner to respond. It's like poking the bear sometimes. And it could look other ways. It could be very provocative or more, Anything to just get this person close to me to soothe this inner anxiety and panic I'm experiencing. And then the second of the insecure is the avoidant attachment. So this person kind of does the opposite, Right? So they've had the experience of having needs reaching out to a close other and those needs not being met. And the way they manage that internal panic is to suppress their needs. So it's okay. I don't need anybody. I'm just going to bury all that stuff because it's way too painful to have needs and not have somebody meet them. Right. It's painful. It's painful. It plays on our self-worth. It's just regulating. So that person has sort of shut down, Tried their best, You know, Buried that attachment system. And so they'll pull away, Close up, Shut down, Be silent, You know, Like really pull away. So that's another way you can manage that. And then the last one is disorganized attachment. And so it's kind of like this really complicated mix of both where you're reaching out for closeness, But then when the closeness comes, You avoid and kind of panic. So this one's a little more usually reflective of a little bit more of a traumatic, Chaotic upbringing or something. So it's usually stems from pretty serious attachment, Trauma, Or things like that. And so when the person that you're trying to seek comfort and engagement from is also the person who's hurting you. Right. So you'll see that. And so that one, You know, That's, That's a painful one. They're all, You know, They all have, You know, They're all somewhat painful, But yeah, So those are the three, The three insecure attachment styles. So the base is a more secure attachment where the relationship, The other side of the relationship, You're confident that you're going to get through whatever. They're there to support you. You just feel secure. Anxious is more under that, Oh, Everything feels traumatic. I'm afraid you're going to leave me. I'm afraid you don't like me. I'm afraid whatever, You know, We go into some kind of weird spiral. Yes. Okay. I like that. I used to when I, When I call it becoming self-aware, When I first started identifying what was happening with me and really being in tune with what I was sending myself as a signal, I would call it wobbly. Like people would make me wobbly and I could feel that this was going to create some sort of insecurity, Some sort of something inside of me that didn't feel like, Oh, It didn't feel stable. So I identified it, But yeah, Anxious. That would be it. Yeah. Anxious and secure. Yeah. Anything you can feel almost yourself get like almost untethered or ungrounded, Dysregulated and right in some way, You know, However you label it. Right. But starting to just bring that awareness of like, Oh, Something right there, Just something happened and I'm, Something's being triggered in me. Yes. Yes. Okay. So are certain attachment styles attracted to other attachment styles or is that not a thing at all? I mean, It's, There is, There does tend to see, You tend to see, And I see it quite a bit in the couples therapy is an anxious and an avoidant attachment style together. Those play off of each other quite. Yeah. And and so there's, Let me think about kind of the mechanisms there. I mean, Often the way we're thinking about adult relationships, Particularly around these insecure attachments is we're often looking to heal the wound from the problem. Right. The child crushing moment or whatever the yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so we're kind of drawing towards that as like this opera, You know, Subconsciously, Like we're not doing it consciously by any means, But to heal that wound or to satisfy that space that we never got from reaching out. So you could see how often an anxious attachment style develops from an avoidant. Other they, The more they pull away, The more anxious that I get, The more they, The more anxious I get, The more they pull away, The more it creates a spiral. So often there's like this, This initial thing that somehow brings these two together. There's a familiarity to it for them, But then it, It perpetuates the insecure attachment for sure. Right. It just feeds off of itself. And everyone's like, I don't know, Like everyone's, Everyone's triggered. Everyone's panicking. Like this person's coming at me and eating more and more critical. And I want to go more and more my bowl and the more I'm in my hole, The more there. And so it's you know, It's a hard one, But it's once people can recognize, Oh, That's what's happening. That's, What's showing up here. It can be like a big relief because it's not necessarily that the two of us at our core, Like don't want to be together. Don't have the capacity for love and connection. It's just that we're like stepping on each other's like vulnerable buttons, Right? Like just this horrible thing where we just end up right in those spots, You know? And so once you realize like, Oh, Now we're just need to undo some of these unhelpful ways of managing disconnection so that we don't exacerbate this cycle. Then you can start correcting and getting underneath and calming all of the attachment panic that the relationship is stirring for both people. So yeah, That kind of brings me to actually my next question. I was thinking, You know, How does knowing what your attachment style is, Help you in relationships? Like how do we use it to help us? Yeah, For sure. I think it helps immensely like coming in, Having that awareness helps you sort of know, Oh, Like you were saying, Right? You're aware of your self-awareness journey or whatever. You started to be able to recognize when you were getting wobbly. So when you can start to recognize when you're being triggered in that point of awareness and pause, You have a choice to have a different reaction or to respond in a different way. When we don't know, We're just like in it and we're just reacting. And suddenly we're like screaming at our partner or putting them down. And we're like, I don't know why I'm doing this, But no one knows what's happening. But in the awareness we are, Have the choice to say, Oh, I see what's coming up. This insecure attachment may doesn't help likely doesn't stem from the current relationship in may, But usually these are often stemming from our early childhood. Oh, This is coming up because I have this wiring about people not being dependable in there and I'm panicking. I want this person to be close. I need that reassurance. Let me pause. This is not reflective of the relationship in front of me. I can name what's happening and I can choose to have a different response or even just tell my partner rather than just lash out or, Or shut down. I can say like, I'm feeling panic. Like I really want to like do all these things. Like I need you to show up for me right now, Or I need you to help, You know, Being able to have like some capacity just to name it and ask for what you need versus going into the automatic reaction that ends up pushing the other person away more. It's helpful. So yeah, It's super important. It is. Okay. Which is good to know. And then how, I guess you're going to answer this one because I was going to say like, How does it affect like all of our relationships, But it's really just the, The more like parental and the love, The like big love ones. Cause I think about a best friend, You love that person almost like family. So like what did you open siblings and all of that too? Yeah, I can, You know, I definitely think it can particularly at certain points in your life. Right. So if we're all really wired to at least have this one other person that we feel attached, That's there for us engaged that can look differently at different parts of our life. So yes, Typically it's a parent and then a romantic, You know, A spouse or rented partner that we have that close relationship with. But like I was saying, Like adolescents, I could be best friend, You know, Cause you're not as, It's not as much about the family. Now the friends become the really important unit. It can for sure be a sister, You know, I've had people where they had really troubled relationship to the parents and yes, That formed that, But then the sister also became this attachment. Cause now it's just the two of us, You know, We had to kind of write off the parents because it's very obvious that they don't have the capacity. So we're in this together, But then what happens when, If that person starts pulling away. So I think it can stem to other relationships, But yeah. And you might see little things pop up in other relationships, But you probably won't see the same level of that kind of panic. You might see these kind of unhealthy ways of responding and interpersonal relationships around similar things, You know, But probably not the same intensity where that person's like it's survival mode for them. So here's the question. It's kind of popped into my head. Talking about siblings. Let's say, You know, There's three, Four, Five siblings, Can they all, Will they all have the same attachment style based on the parent or is it like when I think about it, Like typically there are different relationships, Child-parent relationships go on within a family dynamic, Not intentionally, Not good or bad, But they just kind of happen. So you could have siblings who are avoidance and insecure, Like all of it in one family, Couldn't you? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. I mean, You know, Different time periods bring out different things in people too. So just using the mother or, You know, Primary caregiver, You know, I've had instances where the other is like three kids, But, You know, After like this person, The mom really suffered with postpartum depression. I mean, I've had that with the other two. So she was very unable to show up emotionally and engage, You know, And so different things can happen. Different things can happen. You know, Sometimes that relationship with the oldest kid and the parent can be, You know, There's a new coming into parenthood. It's stirring up all of this stuff. They're not able to handle it. It's overwhelming. They, Or the opposite super close. And then when the other kids come along, They're not available or, You know, Later on kids also have other options. They have older siblings to feel secure with. They have, You know, So there's, Yeah, I could stir in a lot of, There's a lot of different factors of why one parent, You know, You have kids, Right? Yes. Yeah. You know, It's like either different, Right? Like, So one, Because of one's maybe own personal history or own comfort or own attachment, They might attach easier to one baby than the other, Because the other one kid might bring up some stuff and it's like, Whoa, Or one kid is much doesn't hit on those nerves. Right. It's like another significant relationship. So yeah, For sure. It can look different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're just going to pop into my head. Cause they thought, Oh yeah, Family dynamics. And when you think about siblings and then if you're relying on that, If there's a certain sibling you connect with, Maybe it is because they're familiar, Like the parents. And I like that word familiar because I think we tend to stay in cyclical patterns because they are familiar, Not necessarily good for us, But they feel like we know this. I know what to expect. I know how this is going to go. And though it's may not be good, It's familiar. It's comfortable. Totally, Totally. I know that's how we find ourselves, You know, Like how did this happen again? You know, Someone will get a, You know, And the long relationship or even a marriage or whatever and like come out and like go start dating and be like, How did I do that? You know? And so it's okay. You have to just acknowledge again, That's where that awareness piece comes in and that you're always tuning in to like, What's the motivators or how do I feel, You know, In this relationship, Does it spark that same wobbly feeling, You know, Stepping back? Is that because the person really is not there really is not accessible. And this is not a good idea for me, Or is it actually they are, My old stuff is just coming up and I need to regulate myself and allow that person to show up in a different way and have a new experience. So we talked about this, Like you can identify it and be aware, But you also need someone to help you get to the other side of it. Yeah, I'll just add to that by saying, If you know, I think we often, Because a lot of this stems from the early childhood relationships, Many of us, If it wasn't, You know, This blatant abuse or something that was very apparent that it was toxic or that our parents couldn't show up, We will tend to hold on to an idealized version of, You know, The parents, Because that's again, Protective in a way that's a hard one to, So sometimes when we're doing this attachment work and we're recognizing where our anxious, Avoidant, Whatever disorganized attachments stem from, We're kind of going back and realizing, Oh, That yeah, Actually didn't mean more in that person actually wasn't available. And I, You know, I made the narrative of why, You know, They were so great at their career or whatever it was that was keeping, You know, That can be a lot to unpack for people that can be very dysregulating, A kind of re getting a new understanding of actually there was a child there that needed more, That didn't get it and recognizing that and feeling that pain or that grief for your own self as a child, That what you might've not gotten, You know, And it still doesn't mean your childhood was horrible or your parents were horrible, Like, No, But you, Some, You know, Just even realizing, Oh, I was lonely or I cried alone in my room a lot, You know, Or I suppressed a lot of things I needed just so that I could be valid, You know, Cause being calm and cool and whatever it was valued in my family and being emotional, Was it, You know, Whatever it was. So yeah, I would say sometimes doing that can bring up some hard stuff for people that they haven't thought of before. And, And therapy can be helpful in making some space to process stuff. And I think therapy is particularly helpful if you found yourself in a dynamic where you have two people with insecure attachment of styles that are playing off of each other, Because that is hard to do on your own because you both trigger these really pan, You know, These are strong things and we're stepping. These are hard to rate you're dysregulated, Which means it's hard to, You know, Do really rational work or help, You know, Support each other when we're both. So I would say couples therapy, Like if you're already in that relationship and you recognize that you're like, Okay, We should probably get someone to help us work through and we have the awareness, But we sort of need a third party to help us regulate, Hear things, Like hold all of that for us. Cause it's too much on their own. Absolutely. And even just being able to start the, When you're in that, That space, Kind of like what you were saying, Starting the conversation around, Hey, I'm being triggered. And if you're both aware of it, What you come to therapy and someone can help you have the, I don't want to call them safe words, But conversations that feel safe and secure when you're in anxious mode. Yeah, For sure. That's a lot of the work, Right? So first a model of couples therapy that I like in that, You know, For anyone interested in doing more work based around these attachments stuff is emotionally focused couples therapy. So it's a lot of based in the attachment. And one of the first things you're doing is recognizing what's the negative cycle. And it's usually around these like insecure attachments. So when this person does this, I respond like this, Then react like this. And then maybe, And we identify what's the cycle that's been showing up. That's been impacting the ability for a couple to feel connected, Secure bonded. So first you figure it out, Then you kind of dig in and heal, You know, Heal some wounds. Usually there's events that happen, You know, That really hit people's nerves of fear of abandonment or rejection or whatever, You know, I was going through a hard time at a miscarriage or something, And you still went on your work trip and left me at home by myself, You know, Something, You know, Things like where that, Oh, That was, I can't get over that. I can't feel safe that you're going to be there. That's such a hard time for me or whatever. So you'll want to go in and kind of have healers and in the therapy, Helping them have a new experience of going into the more vulnerable emotions, Because usually neither person is seeing what's actually happening, Which is like fear, Sadness, Pain, Right? Because usually if we see that we can have a lot more empathy and compassion, But when we just see like aggression and anger and blaming and shutting down and silent treatment, We're like not seeing what's actually happening. So we can't go in and actually tend to what actually needs. So the therapy helps get underneath all the noise that's and help them bond over the real stuff and show the vulnerability and then create a new cycle of relating around these events of disconnection. Like that are actually effective, But they leave feeling more bonded after not more disconnected. Oh, That's good stuff. How would someone go about finding out what their attachment style is? Yeah. So sometimes it can be really obvious, You know, Like even even just listening to this conversation now, Like, Ooh, That's me. Sometimes it's not clear. And sometimes it's certain situations provoke different reactions. You know, You may not always come out as the anxious type, But maybe certain times or maybe, You know, You start, I don't know. It could be a little differently, But yeah, We were that this attached book is a great one. It's about adult attachment. So I think we're mostly talking about adult attachment here. There's also a lot of literature on like parents, A child attachment, A lot of good books and stuff like that. Like, You know, It's never too late if you've recognized, Oh, I think me and my child have an insecure attachment or my child has this, We can, There's lots to do to help move that towards, You know, Repair that to a secure, But adult attachment this book attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller is a great starting point for, I think it's really like they simplified it and gives a lot of good examples. And it comes with a little questionnaire to help you identify what your attachment style is. So I think that that's a good place to start reading a little bit more and in reading some stories. Oh, That sounds like me, But that sounds like my partner. I think it also includes one, A questionnaire about your partner. So if you are in a relationship, You can kind of assess from certain behaviors and be like, Oh, That's, You know, That they tend to err more towards the avoidance style. Oh, This makes sense. Oh, Whatever. So I think that's a good, A good place to start. It's a good resource. Yeah, That's, That's when I read, Oh gosh, It's probably been about three, Maybe four years ago. And yeah, That was in the becoming self-aware. And I was like, I wonder why I keep doing this and I don't know how it came up, But I found it and it was huge. And just helping me identify some of the stuff that I was continuing to do that kept me in this weird pattern of dysfunction is what I would call it. Totally. I think it can be, I mean, For some, Like I said, Sometimes it's hard to recognize it in yourself and then sometimes it's so freeing. It's like, Oh, There's a framework for why this keeps happening and there's something I can do about it. So that's the good thing. It kind of creates some hope. You're not stuck in this cyclical pattern of not living the way you want to live or being in the relationship you want to be in. There are things going on inside of you that you just need to pay attention to, Do some work with, And you can change that. On that note, Are there any things that or steps or practices that we could kind of do to help get us to a more secure attachment style? Yeah. I think therapy is definitely one of those, Right? Getting in there and opening up about what's kind of the stuff that's living in your body or in your emotional body too. Right. That's, That's all of us. We all do. I mean, No one came out unscathed, Sorry to report regardless. We all came out with some stuff, Which is, You know, Interesting. So it's just starting to understand kind of digging into, Okay, I recognize them. It's you're talking to them. Why what's coming up? Is there healing that has to happen? You know again, Like sometimes you have to process grief about things we didn't get in relationships and that that was painful whether or not we've allowed to recognize that before. Now we are. So a lot of things, Hurts and pain, Like they get housed in our body and we have to release process, Right? These were things often then happened before we had the cognitive capacity for that type of understanding and thinking. And now we do. So I would say also learning how to emotionally regulate, Right? So you're not the child anymore. It's time to recognize what comes up for you, But also really start to develop more emotionally, Right? So building a sense of self, A sense of security within asserting your needs, Having emotional awareness like this is coming up for me, I feel wobbly, Whatever it is, Taking responsibility. You know, Cause we often put those things on the other person. We're doing that in a like time to take some response. You know, We have to take responsibility for what's coming up. I mean, I love mindfulness for like everything, But the more you practice mindfulness, The more you're tuning in. So a person with an insecure attachment likely tended to tune out to others because it was survival, Right? And that person wasn't always accessible. So it was like, I'm hypervigilant to, Are you close? Are you not, I'm aware. Are you upset with me? Are you not upset with me? Like, Are you happy? Can I move closer? Do I have to move away? You know, And a lot of times people were managing around like parents nudes or emotional availability and stuff. You know, If you had the really reactive parent or whatever, You're so focused on staying close and keeping the regulating the other or not disrupting, You didn't spend a lot of time inside just with yourself. And who am I, What do I like? And, You know, You didn't have that freedom necessarily to do that because you didn't feel secure, Right? So the person with the secure attachment, They're comfortable. You know, Even if, You know, Even if the parent or whatever is like, They like know that person's available and they need them. So they're out exploring and doing things and being creative and curious and whatever. And cause they're coming home to their comfy little secure home base, Or if something goes awry while they're out in the world, They know who they can call or that mom's going to pick them up or that that person will be there. They pick up the phone, You know, Kind of a thing, And that will, That's very regulating. So I like mindfulness for the practice of starting to tune into your own internal experience and really starting to connect with yourself. I like that too. I really do the mindfulness piece. You can do it in everything. It's good for everything. The other thing that's really helpful, Like if you are not in a relationship right now is, And you notice that you have an insecure attachment. I mean, The ideal thing is that you look for partners with secure attachment styles. So you that can, That's the most corrective experience you can have is having a new attachment person that is accessible does offer reassurance is engaged. Oh, Right. That can really heal. It will completely heal, You know, A parent fully or something, But it will calm you in the present and will really be regulating. So ideally you find a partner that has a secure attachment that can show up in the way that you're needing, Um, And calm all of that. I will say for someone tending to find in these anxious avoidance, Couples dynamics, Those tend to feel more exciting at first than dating somebody with a secure attachment. Not that that person is not attractive and fun. It's just the ingredients create a lot more. I don't know how they get like ruffling and excitement. And are they an insecurity, Which insecurity at first is exciting, You know, And you're thinking about it all the time. Like a lot of times if you are dating in a more securely attached person, It's like, Doesn't have that same, Like, I can't stop. I can't sleep. I can't eat. I get thinking about this person. Don't run away from those too soon. Right, Right. No, It's hilarious because as you're talking to them, I'm like, Oh my God, I totally identify. And I'm sure the listening audience can too, Because we've all been there. And I will say that when, When you do come to that secure relationship, When you find it, It is a completely different feel, But you have to be looking for it. You have to be searching for that and being aware when somebody is igniting that anxious or that's just, It's so huge, But it is doable because I have done it and it does feel completely different and I can see where it would almost feel and I hate using the word boring, But I'm struggling to think of a better word that it's so secure and so safe that you don't have any of it. You just don't have it. And you feel quite comfortable. You trust a hundred percent. Oh, I'm just going to say it's almost kind of weird because it's not like anything you've ever experienced before. And so you kind of, I did, I kind of like questioning it like, Well, This is weird. Is this right? Is this? Totally. It has to come up. Yeah. Yeah. I totally understand. I had that experience. Like, You know, In the earlier dating, Of course you tend to be drawn towards whatever, You know? And so I remember when I first started dating my husband, I was like, Like, I felt so calm and at ease with him, Like in my core and in my gut and my head was just like, I don't know, Like, He's just too happy. Like he's too happy. Like, You know, It was just like all these, This noise. And I was so grateful that I allowed the part of me that felt good to just keep going and just kind of listen to the noise and would kind of get a little twisted, But then like didn't. Cause I was like, Okay. And then, And then you get to that point where like, Oh, This is so sweet. Thank God, You know, Just like, Thank you. Thank you, Whoever, Like, Let me stay to learn, You know, What that was like and why that's so wonderful, You know? Cause it's, It can be easy, Right? To write it off or, You know, To get pulled in because like we were talking about earlier about familiar and unfamiliar, It's unfamiliar if you have the history of you know, Other types of relationships. So, And I think too, Our mind tends to want to protect us and it's saying, Hey, This doesn't feel familiar. We need this because we know it. And that's why the stuff starts coming up. We don't have brain chatter. I know, I know. Which another reason why I love mindfulness just to calm everything down and also to help you tune into other parts of your experience. Because if we're just think, Just thinking that our thoughts are what guides us, You know, We're a, That's going to be confusing because we can basically think anything. So that's why people end up in circles thinking, Well, I think it's like all of the real information is housed elsewhere from this overdeveloped brain, Right? Emotions of what our body's telling us so much information there. So mindfulness also just helps broaden that where we are able to tune in to a lot more than just the thinking part, Which is so annoying. Sometimes our brains, At least mine is. Let's do just quickly, Because I know you're a busy woman. When we say mindfulness, What are you saying with the practice of mindfulness for someone who really isn't aware of that? Yeah. So, I mean, Mindfulness can look a lot of different ways. There is like formal mindfulness, Which is a lot of what people think about with meditating and they can, You know, Meditation. So you're sitting down, You're closing out all of the noise, You know, You're likely closing your eyes. A lot of people like to use many of the apps that will guide you through mindfulness or meditation exercise, You know, Anywhere from five, 10 minutes to people meditate for hours, But you know, Most people are in the five to 30 minute range. I would say five. Great. I started at three. I remember thinking that was so hard for three minutes. It just makes me laugh now. But yeah, So what it is gearing you to do is kind of like what I was just talking about is it allows you often our minds, Right? They're in the past, They're in the future. Both of those past thinking can sometimes lead us to feel more depressed, Right? Even if it was a positive event and then we're no longer have it or things didn't go well, We regret future tends to lead us to feel a little more anxious or worried what's going to happen to the, The, What we find in the research is if we are able to build more of a muscle to bring our awareness and attention into the present moment, We're much happier. Even if the present moment isn't great, Like even if you're going through a hard time being more in the present moment, You will feel better than if you are like in all the other wherever places that we go. So what a lot of the exercises do, And it's common to like cue into your breathing. So you're just, You know, Your mind will wander and you come back to noticing the sensation of breathing your mind wanders, Right. Or physical sensations or body scan, Where you kind of moving through your body and there's all sorts of exercises. And some are more like visual exercises, Which take you kind of out of your body. Like the ones I was kind of talking about is taking you in your experience, Just in that moment, What is the air in the room feel like on your skin? You know, What does it feel like where your fingertips are touching the top of your thighs? What do you notice, You know, Very kind of just with yourself. We find that can calm the mind and also just tune you into other things that are going on in your body. Then there's like less formal mindfulness, Which is like mindful walking, You know, My fault. But I like when I'm talking about usually talking about people sitting down and practicing more formal, Especially if it's unfamiliar to you to build up that what we call it like a muscle, Like a mind muscle. Yes. Yeah. No. And that's, I think of the meditation and the kind of coming back to right here now and thinking about the breath going through the nose and, You know, Just staying right here. Yeah. When I was, When we were talking earlier about how creating that space to respond, Like rather than react, That's kind of what mindfulness helps you do. Oh, I'm noticing that I'm being triggered, Right? My partner's out of town or they left and they didn't come up and give me a kiss goodbye. And I noticed, Oh, That's bringing up that stuff for me, Right? When we have build that muscle to be more in tune, We can say we can pause for a second. And when we can pause, We can respond how we choose. Yes. Right. Which may not get us where we want to go. So having the opportunity, We may, Maybe we will still react the same, But at least we chose, Right? At least we had a sense of, You know, Autonomy or control. And I still may not do the best thing because, You know, We're not perfect. And sometimes we just don't want to do the right thing. Right. And that's the other piece is we are human. So even when we're aware, It's still, You know, Sometimes it works, Sometimes it doesn't. Yeah. So I have plenty of people who are like, I know I should have done that different, But I just really didn't want to, You know, And I could really, It's like, I can know exactly what I'm doing and know it's like, So not what I should be doing, But I'm just making that choice right now. So whatever. Yeah. At least we made a choice. At least we had awareness. That's right. That's right. It's an awareness and you chose, You didn't just like let stuff happen. Yeah. Well, In that you're taking responsibility to that your partner is not going to respond the way you want them to respond. That was your choice because you chose to engage in the less effective behavior, Which isn't going to get you what you want. So you can't go pouting when you don't get what you want, Because you know that that's not going to get you where you want, But you wanted to have your little. Externalizing moment then fine. Or you want it to go in your hole. Fine. But don't expect your partner to show up the way you really need them in that moment. You know, But that, So. Yeah. Anyways, If you chose that path, They're not going to choose another. Right. Yeah. Well, Jessica, As always, I love talking with you and know you need to get on with your day and your practice. What are some ways people can connect with you always love people to be able to connect. I follow you on Instagram. Great stuff. Thank you for putting it out there. Yeah. So I have Instagram is just Dr. Jessica Waldron or at Dr. Jessica Waldron. My website is the same thing. Dr just Dr Jessica Waldron. Com. I think those are the two main places to find me. Yeah. And I, I will say go to Jessica, Dr. Jessica Waldron's website. You have some great articles on there. Something to think about. I've popped on there a couple of times and I share like little snippets in my group and send the link to your website. So hopefully. Oh, Thank you. Love that. I think it's so, So important to share this information that might help someone just start down the path of making changes to make their life better. So that's so great. Yeah. Well, Thank you. Thanks for coming by again. Yeah, For sure. Anytime. Well, Thank you to everyone for tuning in, Listening, Watching, Stay safe, And I will see you again next week. If you enjoyed today's episode, Please hit the subscribe button to follow us and receive new episodes each week. 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