Hope To See You Again

Bob explains the difference between Zen Buddhist and non-Zen Buddhist in regards to hope. What use does hope have for Zen Buddhists? He brings up Pandora's Box and Dante and Virgil in the "Divine Comedy." How desire and hope are intertwined. Elaborating on examples such as AA.

Note: Audio quality may not be optimal. Headphones are recommended. Also contains explicit language.

Transcript

I think I'd like to start by separating Zen Buddhists from non Zen Buddhists.

As a Zen Buddhist,

You've taken Bodhisattva vows to end all your delusions.

I got this pesky little mosquito.

It doesn't seem to be going away.

So I hope that today,

Possibly it will take eye.

So there's an issue in human experience where you have good experiences and bad experiences.

Bad shit happens to people.

So how did non Zen Buddhists deal with this?

One of the ways was we were handed down the story of Pandora.

Whoever wrote the story of Pandora knew exactly what they were doing.

Of course,

The story is,

And I always fuck it up,

But Pandora sometimes love princes.

She marries a king,

She gets this gift,

The king forbids her to open it.

He takes off and do something or other and she opens that fucking box.

When she opened the box,

All the imps and demons of the world flew out of that box.

And in the bottom of that box was hope.

Now,

Why was hope included in that box of imps and demons?

Because whoever wrote that story knew the problems and delusions of hope.

Some people argue that it was the greatest demon of all that got out loose.

It fucked up hope.

It fucked up everything.

So,

Christine has kinfolk in El Cajon.

And occasionally she likes to drive to El Cajon to see him.

She knows from her experience of driving to El Cajon,

Making this part up,

Takes three quarters of a tank of gas.

So,

She looks at her gas gauge and sees that she only has a quarter of a tank.

Is it really reasonable that she would hope that a quarter of a tank would get her to El Cajon and knows from her experience that it takes three quarters of a tank?

I don't think she would.

She would look at how much fuel she has and instead of hoping that a quarter of a tank would get her to El Cajon,

She'd say,

Oh,

I only have a quarter of a tank of fuel in my car.

I need to get fuel.

How absurd would it be if she left for El Cajon hoping that a quarter of a tank would get her three quarters of a tank down or out?

We know this is silly.

Now,

For non-Zen Buddhists,

I would never in a million years attempt to take away hope from somebody who is just an ordinary person who has hope,

For whatever reason.

But if you're a Zen Buddhist,

This is a different story.

So,

When we're looking at the scenario without hope,

We're saying,

Hmm,

How much fuel do I need?

Anybody that would take off her El Cajon with a quarter of a fucking tank hoping it would get them to El Cajon is going to be in for an interesting ride.

Why would you take it?

So,

The rational position is to look at it and say,

I need three quarters of a tank.

Not look at it and say,

I hope a quarter of a tank will get me there.

I'm reminded of Richard Dawkins,

Who was an atheist,

Obviously,

Who was asked about,

What would you say to a child who believed in Santa Claus?

And what he said was,

I would ask him certain questions.

I would say,

Hmm,

How would this person get around the entire world in one night,

For example?

But he wouldn't just arbitrarily yank Santa Claus out of this child's life.

If the child was old enough or sophisticated enough to ask the question,

That's how he would answer it with kind of a Socratic back and forth there.

And if the child wasn't old enough or sophisticated enough to ask the question,

He wouldn't just arbitrarily try to pull Santa Claus out of this child's life.

It's not your place as a Zen Buddhist to try to yank hope away from people that have hope.

Unless you've got something to replace it,

Why are you pulling it away?

Now,

We have Zazen to replace it.

They don't.

And if one would think that yanking hope out of somebody's grasp,

Out of compassion,

That's wrong.

If somebody was asking you and was able to ask questions about it,

It wouldn't be wrong to suggest that they examine this.

I got this pesky little mosquito called Hope,

Which seems to still be lingering.

And of course,

We don't try to get rid of it.

It'll fall away when we realize it's useless.

Hope is based on nothing.

There is no reason for hope.

What there is is a most likely scenario.

So we make up a story about the most likely scenario.

We look at the available options.

And then we assess those options.

So if I've got a quarter of a tank of fuel to go to El Cajon,

But I need three quarters of a tank,

The most likely scenario is I'm going to run out of fuel on the way to El Cajon.

That's the most likely outcome.

So where does hope come into play in this?

It doesn't.

It plays no part.

Now this doesn't mean that non-Zen Buddhists who have hope for some reason,

No reason,

Should be subject to having that hope taken away.

But if you're a Zen Buddhist,

You must have it taken away.

It must disappear.

You've taken the bodies up above to end your delusions.

And it's one of the greatest delusions of all.

There's absolutely no reason to have hope.

Which means we have to use an alternative to hope,

Which is an adult assessment of the situation.

We create a most likely scenario based on reason.

Fortunately for us,

As Zen Buddhists,

We don't have to rely on reason,

Although it's a damn good place to start,

But we don't have to rely on it.

Because we're sitting in Zazen.

So we see hope come and go.

We realize hope is a useless delusion for us.

It doesn't do a fucking thing.

It can't intervene in our lives.

It's just nonsense,

A delusion that we're following.

Is it okay to have these delusions,

Though?

It's not okay to have these delusions?

No,

It's not okay to have these delusions.

But we don't judge them.

We just sit in Zazen,

And when they become useless and fall away,

We go,

Oh,

That was a useless piece of shit.

I guess my question is,

When we say,

I hope to see you again,

That's just some social thing I come up with,

I hope to see you again.

But what if you really mean it?

I don't really mean it.

I really mean it.

I enjoy you very much,

But if you don't want to fucking show up,

Don't show up.

You see this?

You understand?

I enjoy all of you very much,

But if you don't want to fucking show up,

Take a hike.

I say,

I hope to see you again,

The same way you say to somebody at the grocery store,

Oh,

How are you?

You don't want to hear all their,

Hey,

You're my sciatica,

And my fucking knee,

You're killing me.

You don't really want to hear that.

You say,

How are you?

It's a social convention,

You see?

I like to poke you with,

I hope to see you again,

When it's working.

You don't expect to see you again.

Yeah,

I don't expect to see you again.

And the reason I don't expect to see you again is not based on my stories,

It's based on almost 40 years of experience.

Oh,

Sensei,

You're the one.

Oh,

Sensei,

I'm going to practice forever.

Oh,

Sensei,

I'm coming 12 times a week.

Oh,

Sensei,

This is it.

And I hear this.

And I hear this.

Well,

I may not expect to hear the patter of little feet running away from here.

It's not unusual for that to happen,

For whatever reason.

Which you are picking up the pickup on.

Why does he say,

I hope to see you again?

That's good.

So,

What I'm saying is for non-Zen Buddhists,

We don't have to go out of our way to make these motherfuckers more miserable than they are.

But the source of their misery is hope.

Most people are not Zen Buddhists,

Most people are not even interested in finding out why they are suffering.

They think they know why they are suffering.

But they have no fucking clue.

Ordinary folks.

They are non-Zen Buddhists and they are curious about their own,

You know,

Why they do things.

They can see it.

Psychotherapists who can help them look at why they do what they do and why they behave how they behave and why they think how they think.

So,

Psychotherapists.

I'm going to correct your misapprehensions in psychotherapy.

The idea is,

What do you want?

I will help you get what you want.

Of course,

We know a Zen Buddhist getting what you want can fuck you up.

Sometimes worse than anything.

All those stories of people who desire stuff and get it,

Their lives are as fucked up beyond their own comprehension.

I don't know this person's name,

But one of my favorite stories is a man who won,

And I don't know what year,

Maybe 1984,

But he won the gold medal for the United States in,

I think it was running,

Some sort.

He won the gold medal and instantly his life began to disintegrate and go in ways that he never dreamed would happen.

He's got people screwing him over for endorsement things.

He's got family members that want to somehow be associated with and hang on to a winner.

And the guy begins drinking.

I don't know if he was drinking before he won the gold medal,

But he begins drinking very heavily after he won the gold medal.

Pretty soon he has lost everything.

All of his endorsements are gone.

All the family members that got hooked up with him to try to make money off of him or whatever,

They're all gone.

And when we meet him,

He is living on Skid Row in Los Angeles,

And he's working for the Christian guys that help people out that want donations.

Yeah,

He's working for like the Salvation Army.

And he's living in a little tiny place and he's sweeping up in front of the Salvation Army place.

And when he's being interviewed for this film,

He's pointing out he's never been happier in his life than he is right now,

Working for the Salvation Army.

He is able to help people on Skid Row with their problems because he has solved some of their problems and he knows the solution for them.

And so this is,

Instead of being a piece of shit,

By the way,

He stopped drinking,

He's sober.

Instead of being some piece of shit who's wrapped up in all the problems of the ordinary people on Skid Row,

He's able to,

You might say,

Step up.

Because he's an alcoholic,

He's gone through what they're going through,

And he's able to give them good and sound recommendations or advice about how to get out of the suffering that they're in.

This story,

Or this type of story,

Is not unheard of,

But it's kind of rare.

Basically,

This is the guy that pulled himself up out of the alcohol shit hole he's in and is in recovery.

And he's happy as a motherfucker sweeping up in front of the Goodwill.

He's happy delivering a meal to somebody who can't get out of their house.

In other words,

He won the lottery.

Most people have an attachment to their misery.

They won't let it go.

It becomes the core of their life.

Part of that delusion issue they have is hope.

Like some magic formula that's going to get them out of the psychological situation that they find themselves in.

What's hope going to do?

It's not one fucking thing.

By the way,

I've been saying for years that of all the treatment protocols that are available for alcoholism or chemical dependency,

I've been saying that AA is light years ahead of any other program.

In other words,

They have more people in recovery than any other system.

That doesn't mean that other systems won't work for a particular individual.

It may.

But there's a new study that's been released,

And I don't know how many people were assessed,

But lots,

Like 18,

000,

Something like that,

Of people in AA.

Right now,

The official assessment is AA works better than any other treatment protocol,

Which is what I've been saying for many years.

That's the latest on AA or NA,

That whole program,

12-step program.

The evidence from the assessments is that AA has successfully dried out more drugs and drug addicts than any other system.

I call that a win.

None of that was based on hope,

By the way.

I hope I stop drinking.

Keep hoping,

Motherfucker.

A number of people come by here from NA and AA who ostensibly are practicing Zazen,

But if they were here regularly,

You'd know who they were.

They'd be sitting here having coffee with us,

But they're not here.

They kind of hope that they won't have that next beer instead of following their fucking 12-step program.

They hope,

But over and over and over again,

They show up sometimes here,

Battered and bruised,

Because they had that Bud Light.

Now,

12-step is great.

If you're practicing Zazen and allowing these desires passed through consciousness unobstructed,

You wouldn't have the first fucking beer.

Which tells me I don't care what you're involved in,

What kind of nonsense you're involved in.

You ain't practicing Zazen.

Otherwise,

The desire for that Bud Light would come and go with no work on your part.

Once you find out that the desire for that first Bud Light will pass,

You wouldn't fucking drink it.

I think all the Bud Lights know you wouldn't drink it.

It strongly suggests to me,

I don't care if you're in AA or in AA or practicing Zazen,

You're not allowing this bullshit to pass through consciousness unobstructed.

Sometimes we're completely blind to this stuff,

Like a woman who's in AA and is looking at free booze,

And they say,

It's not free.

She says,

Well,

What do you mean?

It doesn't cost me any money.

I said,

The price you're going to pay for that booze is far higher than any fucking money that you would pay for it.

Well,

What do you mean?

I'm presuming to you guys,

It's probably pretty obvious what I mean,

But there's,

You're not getting it.

That price you're going to pay for that first fucking free drink,

And I'm putting free in quotes,

Is unimaginably high.

What you may grasp quite quickly,

She's just a regular person,

What do you mean the price is high?

It's free.

And that first fucking drink you're going to have is going to fuck you up to the bone.

It's not free.

You're going to pay the highest fucking price there is to pay for it.

Which is more drinking.

Because 12 step does work for a lot of people.

The point of the 12 step is that you lose your attachment to alcohol.

If you do not lose your,

It falls away.

If you do not lose your attachment to alcohol,

But you are not exactly,

If you're not consuming alcohol,

It means that you are fighting the urges or triggers to have alcohol.

Fighting,

Fighting,

Fighting.

This is not a sober person.

This is a person who is not drinking,

But fights the urge for alcohol constantly.

If you are actually in recovery from alcohol dependency or chemical dependency,

You do not fight the desire to have the drugs or the booze.

So let's say that you're an alcoholic,

But you're now at a party.

An alcoholic,

Even if they're not consuming alcohol at that party,

Wants to consume alcohol,

Thinks about consuming alcohol,

And probably will consume alcohol.

But an alcoholic that's actually in recovery doesn't give a shit what alcohol is in that room.

They're a non-alcoholic who's consuming social drinks,

Doesn't even think about fucking chemicals of dependency.

They don't think about,

I got to finish this fucking drink.

They don't think about,

I'll just have one more.

They don't think like that,

But alcoholics do.

Alcoholics think,

Hey,

There's another fucking half a bottle of fucking tequila in the freezer.

One of my favorite stories of a speaker at a meeting with a guy who's been in AA for,

I don't know how long,

More than 20 years.

He talks about going into a bar and he orders a shot of whiskey and a beer back or whatever.

Now he's sitting on the bar and he's got this thing in front of him and he says,

You can't fuck with me.

I'm stronger than you.

Every fucking year he goes into this bar and says,

Hmm,

Yep,

I'm in recovery because I could bite your ass.

His sponsor could easily tell him you're not in recovery.

If a person's actually in recovery,

They go,

Are you kidding?

I'm not having a drink.

I'm not going into that bar.

I'm not going to fucking see if my will is stronger than the booze.

At some point when I'm hearing his talk,

He's laughing at himself for thinking it's all about willpower.

Is he stronger than the booze?

Is he stronger than the desire?

So he thinks he's pitting himself against the booze.

But now he's actually in recovery and he's laughing at himself for thinking this has nothing to do with me pitting myself against the desire to peruse.

I'm using these examples about desire because they fit an awful lot of our practice.

Hoping you don't have a drink,

That is a prescription for disaster.

So I'd like to end this.

Remember when I'm going to light my cigar?

I'd like to end this with Dante Alighieri.

When he wrote his story,

The description of hell,

He was Bruno.

I can't think of a motherfucker that went with him right now.

Virgil.

So Dante describes going in the inferno.

He describes his trip into hell.

Now he and Virgil go into hell,

Into the inferno.

And as they reach the gates of hell,

You know,

In Dante's version,

There's a number of circles of hell.

Each circle is more severe in punishment.

Dante and Virgil walk into hell.

And when they get to hell,

There's a sign over the gate.

Now we spoke this up,

But it says,

Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

Abandon all hope ye who enter here.

Now,

Obviously,

Just like the Buddhist First Noble Truth,

Most people would see that and go,

Abandon hope?

I'm fucked.

But Dante and Virgil walked through hell and got out.

They exited hell.

How did they do that?

Because abandon all hope ye who enter here is not a description of the people in hell and their circumstance.

It is a prescription for exit.

And all hope of exit is abandoned.

Virgil and Dante walk right through.

Now,

This is absolutely consonant with suffering coming from desire.

And it's absolutely consonant with the idea that hope is fucking you up.

And the problem is,

Is that hope hangs onto your ass and you think it's a way to escape,

But it isn't.

The more you have hope,

The more it's like a whatever,

Sticky bear or whatever,

The more you hope,

The more you get attached to this sticky bear.

I said I was going to end with that,

So I'm going to end with that.

Otherwise,

We could be here for another 12 hours.

It's very good to see you all.

I hope to see you again.

At least you see I have a little sense of humor.