Whole Body Mental Health (Part 2)

A conversation with Chartered Psychologist, nutrition expert, author and advocate for a Whole Body approach to Mental Health and Wellbeing, Kimberley Wilson.

We discuss why the way we think about mental health, as separate from physical health, is seriously flawed, and talk about the importance of whole body mental health, that factors in nutrition and lifestyle and how they impact the brain.

Transcript

I think that'll be really interesting for people to hear.

Sure.

I think it starts from,

Something's going to sound really obvious,

But your brain is made of food.

We kind of forget.

We forget that we are made of food.

We are composed as babies from the little broken down fragments of whatever it was our mothers were eating in utero.

This bit of me is chicken wing and this bit of me is a baked bean.

You know,

We are composed of these fractions of food.

But I think the relationship between food and brain health,

Food and mental health really starts back there.

You know,

People start,

You know,

They will come to me in kind of midlife and say,

What about now?

And yes,

We can do things now,

But I guess I want to get across this message of prevention and proactive interventions.

So we know,

For example,

So if you're an architect or you're a builder and I sent you off to build a house and I gave you the schematics and the plan and I gave you the piece of land,

What you would need are the right materials,

Right?

It wouldn't help if I gave you a bunch of washing up sponges and said,

Make me a lovely house,

Please.

Because they are roughly the right shape,

But they're the wrong material.

They're not going to do what we need it to do.

So when it comes to the brain,

There are some key nutrients that are absolutely essential materials for building the brain.

They are the omega-3 fatty acids,

Particularly DHA,

Another one called arachidonic fatty acid.

Iodine is required to make thyroid hormone,

Which kicks off the development of the organs in utero and really determines the neuronal density of the brain.

And we know that because in regions where there is iodine deficiency,

Usually inland,

Landlocked areas,

There is long-term chronically suppressed IQ in the population.

Iodine is considered by the World Health Organization to be the leading cause of preventable brain damage worldwide.

Where do we get our iodine from?

It's richest in seafood and then fish and seafood.

So again,

It really,

And along with omega-3,

Which is found in oily fish,

It really leans into this understanding that for a big chunk of our development as human beings,

As modern human beings,

We were coastal or lakeshore dwelling because we needed these preformed omega-3s and this iodine and choline,

Which is also found in fish and animal foods,

To build our very,

Very hungry brains that are too big for our bodies,

Really.

Compared to other land mammals,

Our brains are much bigger than they should be because of the energy consumption,

But it means that we must have had access to these key nutrients in abundance in order to be able to build these brains.

So DHA,

Iodine,

Choline,

Which is found in liver,

Egg yolks,

Salmon,

Fish,

And kind of animal products,

Pork.

And these are the kind of limiting factors.

So we know that when you,

In animal studies,

When you deprive a mother of omega-3 in her diet,

Her baby's brain,

If you look at the brain cells in the hippocampus,

There are 50% fewer connections than if you make sure she has sufficient omega-3 in the diet.

So the amount,

The availability of some of these nutrients are actually limiting to the structure.

So it's like me saying,

Off you go,

Build a lovely house for me,

But I'm only gonna,

I'll give you some bricks,

But only about two thirds of the number of bricks that you need.

You might be able to build a structure,

But it's not gonna be anywhere near as resilient and up to the task as it might be if I gave you everything you needed.

So I think it starts there.

It starts preconception in utero with actually the very,

Very foundations of what we're building in our children and young people.

And then it's onwards,

Like things that take care of your brain are the polyphenol compounds that keep the blood vessels happy.

There are 400 miles of blood vessels in your brain in order to fuel those very,

Very hungry cells.

And you need those blood vessels to be flexible,

Happy,

Healthy,

In order to make sure that there aren't any blockages,

Because blockages is what's associated with strokes and TIAs.

Leafy green vegetables,

And a study that looked at elders who reported eating leafy greens every day,

The ones who ate them every day had brains that were 11 years younger than those who reported not eating leafy greens on a daily basis.

So it's these whole foods,

And this is the issue,

Is it's not that a single,

And I don't make the claim anywhere that a single chocolate bar is going to be detailer to your brain health and that you're gonna be doing yourself harm,

But when we look at what our brains need and what the average,

Not,

I was gonna say average adult,

But actually this extends to children even more so.

So the average adult in the UK is consuming somewhere in the region of 50,

55% of their energy from ultra-processed foods.

For 20% of UK children,

That's 78% of their daily calories come from ultra-processed foods.

And what we know about that is that because when you process an ingredient into its constituent parts,

You lose much of the micronutrient content.

The higher your intake of UPF,

The lower your nutritional status,

Including vitamins A,

B3,

And 12,

Which are essential to neuronal health,

Vitamin C,

D,

E,

Your omega-3,

Selenium,

Zinc,

Phosphorus,

Iron.

So the higher your intake of these foods,

The lower your nutritional status and the less access your very hungry,

Nutrient-demanding brain has to what it needs to function well.

So that is,

I think,

Where I start with.

You know,

Other people will kind of also then talk about the role of emulsifiers on the gut microbiome.

And I think that's all interesting and putative,

But fundamentally we're trying to build houses with insufficient BRICs.

Yeah,

I mean,

It's a bit scary really when you throw out some of those statistics.

It's horrifying.

Well,

I'm just thinking about my own cupboard in the kitchen and what the kind of ratio of processed to whole foods is.

And,

You know,

It's just,

Of course there are cost considerations.

It's much cheaper for people to go and buy processed food,

But even then it's just desire-wise.

When we go to the supermarkets,

We've got nine of the aisles filled with processed food and one with the whole foods in it.

I'm wondering a couple- Desire,

Opportunity,

Access,

All of those things.

Yeah,

All of those things.

I mean,

There's two questions that come to mind here.

The first is around if we are obviously in an ideal world,

We're getting all those nutrients from whole foods,

Healthy,

Clean,

Whole foods.

If that's not possible for whatever reason,

Whether it be cost-related access or just really good advertising,

Can we supplement what we're missing?

I mean,

There's a huge multi-billion pound industry around supplements and,

You know,

Taking many of the things you've described in pill form rather than in the foods themselves.

Does that cut it?

Does that make up some of the gap or do we really need to focus on eating those whole and healthy foods?

And this is where,

You know,

People will rightly say,

Oh,

You talk about supplements,

But supplements haven't been shown to do anything.

And they are right in a particular instance.

So if you are eating a broadly healthy diet we could leave that up to whatever interpretation makes sense,

Then it's absolutely true that supplementation really isn't doing very much for you.

So taking,

You know,

A multivitamin probably on top of a healthy diet isn't doing much because it's like,

If you've got an empty tank and you put petrol in the car,

Fantastic.

It doesn't help to try and put an extra gallon on top of a full tank.

It's excessive,

It's unnecessary.

So the body wouldn't just expel that,

Anything that's over and above your knee?

When it comes to water-soluble vitamins like the B vitamins and vitamin C,

It can expel them.

But if it's a fat-soluble vitamin,

Like vitamin A,

Vitamin D,

Then it can build up.

It can accumulate.

It can accumulate and can become toxic.

Toxicity is rare,

But it's possible.

So,

And the reason that,

You know,

They talk about the prison studies is that in that case,

In this particular case,

We're talking about a population A,

The food in prison is pretty terrible.

So they're not meeting the nutritional intake of a kind of healthy,

Balanced diet that's set up by the government.

But also they come from histories.

Most of the people who are in prison will come from a background of some kind of deprivation where they've had a very long-term,

Poor nutritional status.

And so in that case,

We see these quite remarkable effects,

But we're less likely if it's a group of healthy,

Wealthy people to see those kinds of effects.

So I think it depends very much on the population you're talking about as to how much influence the supplementation can have.

But the other thing to say is that there are dozens,

Potentially thousands of compounds in plant foods that simply cannot,

Have not been identified or could not be replicated in a lab in order to put them in a pill.

So the compounds that you'll find in an apple,

In a matrix with fiber and all of that stuff,

We can't replicate an apple in the pill.

So you might be able to fill some gaps,

But you're not going to get the full abundance and variety and diversity of nutrients,

And not just your vitamins and minerals,

But those plant compounds,

Which we understand to be beneficial as well from supplementation.

So I guess the bottom line is go for the healthy,

Balanced diet.

Eat some beans.

But if you are in a situation where you can't eat a certain type of food,

Maybe it's allergy related or another illness that you have,

Then you can always look to supplements to fill that gap.

Yes,

I think there are certain cases where it makes sense.

And certainly if you have an allergy or you have a diet of exclusion in some way,

Or even,

So there's some research that indicates that if you're going through a stressful period,

So let's say you're an accountant and it's year end or something like that,

You know you're coming up to a deadline or a stressful period,

Supplementation can help with stress resilience.

It can help to mitigate the effects of that stress so you tolerate it better and it has a less negative effect on your mood and your sleep quality.

So,

You know,

Certain populations,

Maybe certain times,

And again,

Certain times in the lifespan,

Pregnancy,

And there are real cases to take on nutrients because there is higher demand or there is a more,

An increased likelihood of deficiency.

I want to go a little bit further into that because it's the first time I've heard,

Of course,

During periods of stress,

We might take an immune booster a bit more often,

Right?

Because we know we're feeling run down.

And as we said earlier,

That connection between being stressed and the body,

That side of the feedback loop is a bit better understood than the other side of it.

Could you speak a little bit more to that?

So if I've got a deadline coming up or I know I'm going to be working,

You know,

A bunch of late nights over the next few weeks,

Are there very specific supplementation I should be looking at?

Or does it also depend on my diet and on my context there?

Well,

I mean,

What's really fascinating about this stuff is that the kind,

So when you're exploring,

Investigating a new nutritional treatment or any intervention,

So let's say I was developing a new antidepressant,

I wouldn't test it against placebo because we know that there are drugs that work.

So I would test it against the next best thing.

So if I were developing a new medication,

I would test it against the next best medication.

And I would be trying to see whether it is as good as or better than that thing.

When they do that with nutrition studies that look at stress resilience,

The next best thing is Barocca.

So there's really actually well-established evidence that B vitamins,

Which are absolutely essential for neuronal health,

So much so that when you are deficient in B vitamins,

Your deficiency symptoms show up as neuronal issues,

As neurocognitive and neuropsychiatric conditions,

Issues around aggression,

Mood disorder,

Irritability,

Poor memory,

Risks for dementia,

That kind of thing.

So your B vitamins and the entire complex of B vitamins are essential for neuronal health.

And when people take them,

And you might've seen the research a few years ago that said like Marmite can help your anxiety.

Again,

Marmite is rich in B vitamins.

So it seems to be at the very least,

Getting a good complement of B vitamins seems to be supportive for stress resilience.

Now in the study that I'm thinking about,

So the study title is Shaken But Unstirred,

And it looked at people,

There was a huge earthquake in New Zealand in 2010,

2011.

Yeah,

Christchurch.

Yes.

And there was a study already ongoing into micronutrient supplementation,

So vitamins and minerals,

And then the earthquake happened.

And so essentially they had this group of people,

Some who were on nutrients and some who weren't,

Who were dealing with this huge stressful event.

And so what they did was to basically turn that into the study.

And the outcome was absolutely fascinating.

The people who were taking the nutrients were less likely to have intrusive thoughts.

They had less severity of anxiety,

And they were less likely to develop PTSD than those who were not taking the nutrients.

And I think that that is around,

Again,

Understanding that your brain is made of nutrients,

But also that all of your neurotransmitters and your stress hormones are made of nutrients,

Right?

So we talk about serotonin,

We talk about dopamine,

And yes,

Some people will think,

Tryptophan or tyrosine,

The amino acid,

You need to have enough of to turn,

To become a neurotransmitter.

But let's say with the example of serotonin,

If you wanna take tryptophan,

Which is an amino acid,

A piece of a protein,

And turn it into serotonin,

And that that is your,

It's a factory,

And this is your kind of conveyor belt,

All of the workers who are doing that job are nutrients.

You need nutrients to do that conversion in order to make your neurotransmitters.

The thing that happens when you have a stressful experience is that cortisol,

Your stress hormone,

Is your alarm system,

Is our evolutionary high alert,

All hands on deck,

This is a nightmare,

We need to survive alarm system.

And so what will happen is that,

And this is called the triage theory of nutrients,

Is that the stress pathways,

The stress hormone pathways will get first dibs on your nutrients in order to keep you going,

To keep you alive.

Your brain doesn't care,

Or your brain body doesn't care whether you're happy or whether you have a libido.

If we're in a crisis situation,

You can have sex later,

We need to survive first,

Is what it says,

Right?

And so evolution has said,

Send all the resources to managing the stress.

And what that means is if you haven't got sufficient nutrition on hand,

Then you might then have insufficient nutritional stores to make your serotonin,

To make your dopamine,

To make that acetylcholine.

And when we look at the functions of those neurotransmitters,

We're talking about mood regulation,

We're talking about motivation and drive,

Pleasure,

We're talking about learning and memory.

And so in this way,

I think it is the way that chronic stress can lay those foundations for later depression,

Is that it's depriving your brain and your body of what it needs to keep it ticking over and keep it feeling well whilst it tries to deal with the emergency.

Yeah,

So it's,

I mean,

Immune system is affected greatly as well,

Because in that stress response,

We're not concerned about whether we'll get sick next week,

It's about staying alive today.

And you said it there that,

You know,

The brain also doesn't distinguish between a real or perceived threat.

So it's a wonderful response to have when we are in a real threat situation,

But when it is an email from the boss or an argument with the partner,

And we respond in the same way that we would if we're faced with,

You know,

A grizzly bear or something,

It's no good for us at all,

Is it?

I love the analogy used of the factory workers being the nutrients that are doing that conversion.

And when the alarm bells ring,

They all just rush off the factory floor and run out to the,

You know,

Assembly area in the front of the factory.

That is exactly it.

Fascinating.

So when in doubt,

Going back to the kind of,

When in doubt,

Keep some Barocco around.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah,

You know,

I have to,

You know,

Let everybody know I'm not sponsored by Barocco,

I bear a nose,

I don't care about money.

But it's- I'm open,

I'm open to being sponsored by Barocco,

Let me say that here.

But it's about broadly,

Yes,

Making sure you've got sufficient nutrition to deal with the stress response,

The survival response,

And provide your brain with what it needs to keep ticking over.

Yeah,

Wonderful.

I wanna get to,

And I think you've already shared many,

But I wanna come back to just,

You know,

A few practical,

What are your top tips that you do give people?

Before that,

The second question I had when you were describing that nutrition,

Brain development,

You know,

Connection is then going one step further to mental health.

So if the brain is slightly underdeveloped,

If some of those building blocks were not there and you've got areas of the brain that haven't been developed in the way they should,

How does that then translate?

So it's kind of obvious to me how it could translate to a lower IQ.

And it's amazing to think that people living on coasts may just be smarter than people living inland just by virtue of their diets.

That's amazing.

But how does that translate then into potential,

You know,

Mental health vulnerabilities in early or later life?

The most honest answer is that we don't know for sure.

This is still very kind of early research.

What we do have,

For example,

Is a range of both associations and interventions.

So we know,

For example,

From many,

Many hundreds of thousands of people that essentially a dose-related response,

Which is healthier your diet,

The less likely you are to convert into depression and the less severe that depression will be.

And then we have some of the early intervention studies which have looked at improving diet in people who already have what would be considered clinically a poor diet.

So it's not taking someone with a great diet and then adding more vitamins.

It's taking someone with a standard American or Western-style diet and improving it in line with either a Mediterranean or a kind of more whole foods intake.

And there are improvements.

There are questions around that still.

You know,

Is it purely the nutrition or is it that you see someone every week who's interested in you and that that helps?

I think that's still being worked out.

But we do,

Again,

Have these very interesting mechanisms.

So it's about bringing all of those things together.

So for example,

We know from pretty robust meta-analyses that there is an association between omega-3 supplementation and depression such that supplementation of about a gram a day of omega-3,

Where about at least 60% of the supplement is EPA and less of the DHA,

Is protective or helps to reduce depression.

A lot of these studies will then kind of speculate on that mechanism.

And one of them might be around inflammation because EPA is absolutely essential to the task of turning off inflammation.

And again,

Most of us aren't eating enough omega-3 rich foods in order to have that.

So there's a possibility that our low intake of omega-3 rich foods is associated with what is our leading cause of global disability,

Which is mood disorders.

And we- And on the flip side,

The ultra-processed food is causing inflammation.

So we're eating food on the one hand that's causing inflammation and not eating the food that can help to lower that inflammation.

And that inflammation,

I think,

I speak from personal experience,

Having had a chronic health condition for over a decade,

When inflammation is there,

Mood is,

I mean,

The impact on mood is incredible.

And when you're not aware of it,

Like many of us are not,

Because we're up in our heads all the time,

We're not in our bodies,

We go on eating those things,

We go on inflaming the system,

And then next thing you know,

We're lashing out at those we love and making all kinds of bad decisions.

Sorry,

I cut you off there.

I wanted to see if you want to finish your train of thought.

No,

The train has left the station.

No,

It's- Okay.

It's fine.

So just the omega-3s,

And then the fact that you said it should,

You know,

60% EPA.

Yes.

Oh,

So what's the other thing?

So other potential mechanisms,

For example,

Certainly one that I'm particularly interested in,

And I have this unofficial campaign on my Instagram,

It's called eat more beans,

Hashtag eat more beans.

And the reason,

And again,

Not sponsored by Big Bean,

The reason is that we,

So we have chronically low fiber intakes in the UK.

There isn't a single age group that is meeting the fiber recommendation.

Only 9% of people in the UK,

Adults or children are meeting that fiber recommendation.

And so aside from all the stuff that we know and talk about the gut microbiome doing,

All this wonderful stuff that it does,

Making vitamins,

Neurotransmitters,

Speaking to your immune system,

Protecting the lining of your gut,

It actually also does something really,

I think,

Wonderful for your brain.

So when your microbiome breaks down fiber,

One of the by-products is a group of compounds,

A group of fatty acids that we've been speaking about the long fatty acids,

These short chain fatty acids are produced as a by-product of microbial fermentation.

And what they do,

A,

Is protect the lining of the gut,

Which is great.

Thank you for helping us reduce our risk of inflammation,

But they also cross into the bloodstream,

Travel up to the brain,

And they help to protect the tight junctions of the blood brain barrier.

So the blood brain barrier is a very highly specialized,

Very important,

Very selective barrier around the brain that separates the brain,

The brain tissue from the bloodstream.

And it's important to do that because you could have eaten anything.

You could have been exposed to anything.

And what we don't want is for any kind of toxic compound crossing into the brain,

Because the brain is very sensitive to intruders,

Because even immune cells from the peripheral body can't make it through,

Because your brain has its own immune system.

So if anything crosses in,

It triggers these microglia,

And you have a neuroinflammatory response.

We know that neuroinflammation is associated with a range of neuropsychiatric disorders,

Including bipolar disorder,

Schizophrenia,

And depression.

And so,

And we know also,

Talking about inflammation,

That cytokines,

High levels of circulating cytokines can impair this tight junction function,

Junction function,

Of the blood brain barrier.

New hashtag there.

Okay.

And so there is a potential,

And I don't look into it,

Because I'm like,

What about this mechanism?

I don't think enough people are talking about it.

But there's this kind of potential role or absence of a protective role from our persistently low fiber intakes,

Which means that we are not getting that BBB protection.

And the issue with that is not just the inflammation,

But that we know for sure that impaired BBB integrity is one of the early markers of precursor and potentially a driver of Alzheimer's disease.

And Alzheimer's disease happens to be our leading cause of death in the UK.

So there's a lot to be picked out.

Food,

As with all parts of biology,

Is very,

Very complex,

And it has lots of constituent parts that might interact with each other and then interact with your genes and then interact with your microbiome and so on.

So there is a huge amount to understand.

But I think what is very clear is that we know that poor diet globally is a leading cause of death and ill health in terms of its association with heart disease and hypertension and certain cancers.

But we cannot then ignore that the brain is gonna be involved there as well.

A poor diet isn't just bad for your blood vessels in your peripheral body.

It's gonna be bad for the blood vessels in your brain.

We know,

For example,

That diabetes significantly increases,

That type 2 diabetes significantly increases your risk of dementia.

You know,

That there are all of these associations between a poor,

Inadequate,

Fiber-poor diet and physical,

And increasingly the evidence is showing neurological concerns.

Just personally,

I've got a lot to go away and think about now.

Restock the kitchen and the supplement cupboard.

I think you've given tons of tips in terms of,

You know,

Whether it's for mothers to be,

You know,

Watching the processed food to whole food ratio,

More fiber,

Beans,

Hashtag the junction function.

Let's improve the junction function.

So to end,

Maybe you could share with us what's exciting you at the moment?

What projects are you working on that have got you,

You know,

Kind of tingling and excited about?

Well,

I mean,

I literally just had a meeting with my team.

That's,

There are about 300 people out there who about four years ago signed up to a newsletter that has never emerged.

I thought,

Yes,

Newsletter,

That'd be great.

That'd be interesting.

I can talk a bit more in depth than I can on my Instagram.

And then just books and things and clinic got in the way.

But my newsletter is brand new.

I'm very excited.

And I'm literally,

I'm planning on theming the sessions,

Theming the newsletter every month.

Every month.

And the first month I think I'm gonna do on taste and flavor and the mechanics of taste and flavor and the relationship between that and our food choices.

But I'm definitely gonna do a month on beans as well.

So that's gonna be my newsletter coming out.

And then really what I want to be doing,

What I'm gonna be doing over the next few months is working on a practical resource because I think self-help books are good.

You know,

I wrote one.

I think they're helpful.

They give you information,

But I think as a practicing psychologist,

What I know is that behavior change is very difficult and actually you need some support,

Some guidance,

Someone to check in with.

And so,

And the other thing that I'm very concerned about and that I'm seeing more and more is people saying,

I'm just,

I'm waiting,

I'm waiting,

I'm waiting.

And while I'm waiting for my GP to get back to me or to get onto a treatment group,

I had someone waiting for an ADHD assessment,

Specialist assessment for over 18 months.

And it was okay because that person was coming to me and I could offer them kind of support along the way while they waited,

But not everybody has that access.

So I want to be able to try and create something that provides people a little bit more support,

That's a bit more proactive,

That is a bit more preventative because we really marginalize mental health when it comes to prevention.

We do prevention with physical health.

You know,

Brush your teeth,

Not because you're already wearing dentures,

But because we want to prevent caries and gum disease.

Don't smoke because we want to prevent lung cancer.

But when it comes to mental health,

We're just like,

Well,

Let's see how you go.

If you get sick,

Then come and see us and we'll try and bring you back to baseline.

And what I want is I hope to create a resource which is preventative,

Mental health prevention in some way.

So I don't have anything just yet,

But that's what's ticking over.

And yeah,

That brings us to,

I mean,

I feel like we could have gone on for a lot longer,

But it's also like a potential for a multi-part series.

There's just so much to this.

I might be back in touch with you.

Just let me thank you again.

This has been,

For me personally,

I'm sure for anyone who's listening,

Just so informative and quite inspiring actually about just the potential benefits of making these changes,

Which are not that hard to make.

They're not that hard to make,

Are they?

So really,

Yeah,

Really appreciate you sharing not just with me,

But with the world or everything you've learned and synthesizing that into a more easily digestible format.

Thank you.

No,

My absolute pleasure.

And I'm glad it feels inspirational and not terrifying.

I know there's some scary stuff in there,

But I want people to know that there's more power in our hands than we think,

Particularly when it comes to our minds and our brain health.

So,

You know,

Power to the people.

Wonderful.

Thank you,

Kimberly.

Thanks so much.

Thank you.

Thanks again for listening to the Back to Being podcast.

If you enjoyed this episode,

You can subscribe or follow to receive news about future shows.

Until next time,

Be kind to yourself and others.

I wish you well.

Reviews

Thank you, this two part talk is very informative and inspiring.