Mindful Communication: How To Find Your Voice, Speak Your Truth And Listen Deeply

Communication is a big part of any relationship. Learn to get in touch with your needs, recognize what they are and learn how you can get them met. Listen for the authentic concerns behind someone's words, reduce anxiety before and during difficult conversations and find nourishment in day to day interactions.

Transcript

Hey,

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We are here to help.

I am Anna Siwald and this is Authentic Parenting,

A podcast about personal development in the context of parenting where I explore how you can find more calm connection and joy in parenting through the process of self-discovery and inner growth with a trauma-informed lens.

Today's episode is all about mindful communication.

How you can find your voice,

Speak your truth and listen deeply.

My guest today is Oren J.

Sofer.

He's the author of Say What You Mean,

A mindful approach to nonviolent communication.

It's a fantastic book.

In fact,

This is the best book I read in all of 2018.

I highly recommend this book.

It's a compassionate,

Warm book and it's full of practical exercises to develop powerful communication and mindfulness skills.

Oren leads retreats and workshops on mindful communications throughout the United States.

He's a member of the Spirit Rock Teachers Council.

He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is a somatic experiencing practitioner and a certified trainer of nonviolent communication.

Oren also creates mindfulness training programs for apps and organizations and I actually enjoy listening to his meditations on the 10% Happier app and the Simple Habits meditation app.

Imagine what it would be like if no matter what anyone said or did,

You were able to hear the deeper concerns beneath their words and actions or to know intuitively what was most important to you in any given situation.

We dive deep into the notion of needs,

Which I'm really passionate about as well.

Needs are the core values that motivate our actions.

They are what matter most,

The root reasons for why we want what we want and Oren believes that we always have a choice.

The more we're able to differentiate between our strategies and needs,

The more clarity and choice we have.

And when external options are limited,

We have a choice about how we respond to life internally.

I hope you'll find practical use in this conversation.

We also did a role play to illustrate,

To give you an idea how this approach works in real life.

Please enjoy this enlightening,

Lively conversation with Oren J.

Sofer.

So it sounds like you were meant to do this work.

I have that feeling when I'm listening to the Dharma talks and all this stuff,

I'm like,

Wow,

What is this stuff,

You know,

Coming through him all this?

Yeah,

It's interesting.

I remember my first career or my first love in life was actually acting.

I was a child actor.

What's interesting was I remember as a kid,

What inspired me to be an actor was wanting to touch people's lives.

I remember seeing a movie when I was like 10 years old or nine years old that got me to think about things in a slightly different way.

And then I had this insight.

I was like,

Oh my gosh,

How many people saw this movie?

How many people like started thinking about things in a different way because of seeing this movie?

And so,

You know,

I said,

I want to do that.

I want to be able to touch people's lives and get them to see things differently or think about things in a different way.

And so my first attempt at that was through acting because that was how I had experienced that shift.

You know,

It was an insight into something about time and being alive.

But then as I grew up,

I got interested in meditation and spirituality and I dropped the acting.

I let it go and I was about 19 or 20.

And then 10,

15 years later,

At a certain point while teaching meditation,

I realized,

Oh my gosh,

I'm doing the same thing just in a different context.

So since you started talking about your childhood,

Let me begin by reading a little part from your book,

A little sentence.

You write that you were a very social,

Gregarious child.

This sentence,

Having often felt invisible as a child at our family dinners,

It took me many years to master the courage to speak up and ask for someone to listen.

This image comes right away when I read this sentence picturing this little boy at the dinner table.

Tell me about that or perhaps how communication has been,

How it played out in your life,

Right?

And how you even wrote this book.

Obviously it has a significance.

Now that you wrote the book,

You can look back and connect some dots.

Give me a story,

You know,

How it has impacted you,

This theme.

Well,

I think the first thing I want to say,

Anna,

Is just kind of the larger context here,

Which is that part of being a child for many of us,

Unfortunately,

Is being forced to fit into a world that's designed around adults.

And I think it's part of the pain and the challenge and tragedy of childhood in our world today is that children are continually forced to conform to a world that's an adult world as they grow.

And obviously with exceptions and,

You know,

Hopefully we try in different ways to meet the needs of our children and to be responsive to them.

And yet for many parents when challenged or when needs differ between the parents or the context and the child,

Very often the child's needs are overridden by the needs of the society or the adults.

There's kind of this implicit hierarchy that children are less important because they're younger or smaller or have less power.

I think it's a very common experience for many of us as children to feel invisible in some way or to feel like we don't matter or our needs don't matter because that's what the world around us is telling us again and again every time we're told you have to because I'm the parent,

You need to,

It should be all of those messages essentially implicitly tell us you don't matter and what you want isn't as important as the world around you.

And when we do that,

We deprive children of the possibility of learning how to live in an interdependent world where both our own needs and the needs of others matter.

We become inculcated into this worldview of either or,

Which is part of the tragedy that we see all around us on the planet is that we're unable to work together as human beings to share resources,

To negotiate around differences.

And part of that is this deeply embedded view that it's either or.

So one of the main thrusts of these tools of nonviolent communication and mindful communication that I teach is to help us to heal from those experiences and that way of looking that doesn't trust that there's the possibility of both my needs and your needs mattering and actually working together.

Yeah,

I'm glad you're bringing up the topic of needs because that's what I wanted to discuss with you at LEND.

I also,

I want to answer your question about a story too.

Yes,

I love good stories and you're a good storyteller.

So,

You know,

My family is Jewish and in Jewish culture it's very animated and lively.

We express emotions very openly.

One of the ways that we show our interest and love for one another is finishing the other person's sentence before they're done or beginning a new sentence before someone else has completed their sentence,

Often known as interrupting.

So as a kid,

I was really bubbly and gregarious and talkative,

But then at a certain point,

As I started to become more introspective and kind of think about things differently,

I needed more space to talk.

I needed a little bit more quiet to form my words or to be,

To trust that people were listening and that wasn't the expectation or style in my family.

What age were you?

I'm just curious.

You know,

Memory is really funny,

Anna,

And I don't trust my memory around this,

But I do remember,

I remember my parents telling me to eat because I was speaking so much that my food would get cold and I wouldn't eat at the dinner table.

So that was when I was probably pretty young,

Like,

You know,

Four to eight or nine,

But then somewhere between like,

I don't know,

11,

12 in my teen years,

You know,

As I started to kind of individuate more and become a teenager,

I think my trust in others' capacity to really hear me started to dwindle.

And there was a lot going on in my family at the time.

One of my family members started to suffer from episodes of mental illness.

And so there was a lot of chaos and confusion in the family.

So I kind of withdrew inside to make space for others,

Which is something that children often do.

Children are very perceptive and intuitively can sense what other people need and whether or not there's space for them.

And so unconsciously,

I made a choice to not take up space or ask for anything because I could see that there was a need.

My parents were overwhelmed with what was happening.

I went through a period in my early 20s where it was very difficult to speak about myself.

I find having a conversation,

But anytime it was about,

How are you doing or how are you feeling,

Or if I wanted to share something,

I would feel very trapped inside and frozen.

Like I want to share what's happening,

But I don't trust that you're going to be able to listen or that you're going to say something that hurts in response.

So I'm just not going to say anything.

But then I would feel even more isolated and alone and angry because now I'm really not connected and you're not noticing that and you're not even asking me.

And so it became this vicious cycle of feeling really alone and trapped inside and like I couldn't speak up.

And it was through a number of different experiences and circumstances that that started to shift.

One of those was having the good fortune of meeting some teachers and mentors in the nonviolent communication world who were able to listen and see me in a way that really worked for me and where I felt really seen and heard and held and understood.

And so that started to rebuild the trust.

And I think I mentioned this in the book,

It was about that time that I started playing the guitar and singing.

And there was something about singing and relaxing,

Literally relaxing my vocal cords and my voice and letting some of my emotions out.

Some of the first songs that I wrote were very mournful or sad,

Kind of just expressing the loneliness and the pain that I was feeling.

And that started to open things up also,

Just the ability to express myself.

And then it was through the training and communication that I started to learn how to ask for what I wanted and to trust that if this person couldn't respond or help,

Someone else would be able to.

And then things slowly started to shift from there.

But you know,

It sounds like it wasn't as much inflicted from outside upon you.

Somehow you fell into this yourself as a child.

Yeah,

I think that's accurate.

And you know,

We all have different experiences.

And some of us grow up literally being told in one way or another,

Don't speak up about that.

You know,

Like,

Get over it.

Don't cry,

Buck up.

You think that's bad.

We're basically given messages that our feelings or our experience don't matter verbally and directly.

That wasn't the case for me.

It was more of a kind of intuitive thing of sensing the world around me and not trusting that there was space.

You know what I picked up reading your book?

You mentioned about your grandma.

There's lots of stories about your relatives,

Your mom,

Every person,

Every family member.

So you have that there are stories that you tell in the book,

And they all have some kind of closure.

What I didn't get that feel from the book is your relationship with your brother.

There is this incident that you describe in the book.

Do you want to tell me that the chair and you get angry?

It's hard to imagine you could be so explosive knowing who you are today.

Yeah,

Sure.

Well,

I've come a long way.

So the story that you're referring to was,

This is in my early twenties.

You know,

It's just my brother and I and my family and so siblings tend to have all kinds of dynamics in their relationships.

And one of the dynamics that we grew up with was around fairness and who's doing more and are we both supporting each other.

And I had the experience of believing that I was always doing more in the family and he wasn't pulling his weight or doing his share and carried a lot of pain and frustration around that.

And so we were at my grandmother's house,

My mom's mom,

Where we used to spend the weekends and go to visit regularly.

And I remember I had just finished meditating.

So this was within the first few years of starting to meditate and I just finished meditating.

And so I don't know if we were having guests over or something,

But I wanted some help from my brother with the tasks around the meal.

And you know,

It's setting the table,

Cleaning up afterwards,

Helping to wash the dishes and so forth.

And so we used to have this thing in my family,

Like I set you clean,

Right?

So it was like one person sets the table,

The other person cleans the tables.

That was our kind of way of balancing it.

And so I went up to him and I said something about like,

I don't even remember what I said,

But I basically made a request around,

Would you be willing to do this if I do that?

Or could you help out with setting the table or something?

And he responded in a tone that was harsh for me to hear and basically said no or something kind of aggressive that wasn't really understanding what I was asking for.

I got really,

Really pissed,

Really frustrated.

And so then I said to him,

This part I remember clearly,

Because this was the trigger,

I said in great pain,

I was like,

You're the one person in the world who can make me so angry I want to kill.

So I was trying to express my pain.

And for me,

Like somebody who like I had just found Buddhist meditation and I'm really committed to trying to like nonviolence and peace.

And so I was saying like,

You know,

The message I was trying to send was it's so painful for me to feel angry and not be heard in our relationship.

And you're the one person in the world who can like get me this angry.

And he just looked at me and he said,

Good.

And that was just too much.

It just sent me.

It was like,

Basically,

He was like,

I'm enjoying your pain,

You know.

And so there was a split second of a decision where I was like,

Am I really going to do this?

You know,

Because I was filled with rage.

And I was like,

Yeah,

I'm going to do this.

I pick up this chair,

This wooden chair in my grandmother's living room,

Lifted above my head and I let out this huge like cry,

Scream like,

Ah,

Smash the chair,

Smash the chair on the floor and break it.

And then like break down into tears and storm out of the house and like went to go sit by myself.

So that was the experience.

And it was this expression of all of the pent up rage in our relationship of not feeling seen and not feeling understood.

And you know,

Just we're very different,

My brother and I.

Like I'm much more neat and tidy.

So we shared a bathroom growing up and he would always leave the bathroom messy.

And then I would ask him if he could do it differently and he wouldn't and he would ignore me.

And so like all of the years of not feeling seen or understood in that one moment of him saying good,

You know,

Like digging into me,

Just pushed me over the top.

There's something very important I learned about that.

And then I'll get back to your question about our relationship.

You know,

I learned it was a wake up call that,

Wow,

You know,

I have a lot of pain and anger that I haven't dealt with inside.

And this isn't healthy.

It was a signal to look more deeply and do some healing work around that anger and around our relationship.

I have a much better relationship with my brother today,

I'm happy to say.

I think that the shift for me was over time starting to get those needs to be seen and understood met in other places.

Eventually over the years,

We were able to,

As we both matured,

We were able to hear one another more.

I was able to express to him not around that particular incident,

But just things in our childhood or things growing up that were hard for me.

And he was able to understand that and vice versa.

And so we've had many beautiful moments over the years of understanding one another.

I wouldn't say we're extremely close today.

We're very different and we lead different lives,

But we have a good relationship.

One of the things that's challenging,

I think,

In our lives that I had to work very hard with in my relationship with him and that many of the students I work with come to me asking about is where is that line in our intimate relationships in life,

Whether it's family or a spouse or a close friend,

Where how much do we persist to ask for someone to meet our needs,

Often our needs to be heard or seen or understood or maybe a certain need for balance of give and take in the relationship?

And at what point do we recognize,

I don't know if this person has the capacity to meet these needs of mine or I don't know if it's worth my energy to keep trying and I'm going to let go and just let this be and find other relationships in my life where it's easier to have those needs met.

And so what's challenging about this is there's a very important difference between genuine letting go and shutting down or avoiding.

And it's a really subtle difference with the shutting down or avoiding,

There's sort of a resignation.

There's a quality of like,

Well,

I give up,

Forget it.

Where it's not actually a true sense of acceptance,

Which when it is true letting go,

There's a peacefulness and there's nothing left.

There's no barrier,

There's no resentment,

There's no hurt.

It's like we see the truth of the situation,

Which is in this relationship,

This is what's available and either this isn't available or I'm consciously choosing to not continue to put energy to try to get that need met here.

And when that choice is conscious and wholehearted and the letting go is complete,

It ceases to be a barrier.

And so in some of my relationships with my family,

Whether it's with my brother or my parents,

It's like I recognize that there's some limits to the depth of connection or how much I will be seen or the level of interest even that a close family member might take in my life.

And I'm okay with that because there are other people in my life who are able to meet that need.

I'm so happy you spoke about this.

We get stuck in wanting that person,

That particular person to meet our particular need and that's such a great cause of suffering.

I have personally dealt with this and I completely know what it's like to let go and you discover this sense of freedom,

Openness and it's so true,

Man.

It's so true.

And we spoke about Mark Nepo.

That was the case for him too,

Right,

Going back to that interview.

He wanted to be seen and not be rejected by his mother.

He was clinging to that and every rejection he was getting from the world,

It was opening up that pain,

That wound again,

But then he learned how to let go and he tells a beautiful story that really is pretty remarkable.

It's a journey.

It's a journey for each of us.

One of the things that I talk a lot about when I teach,

Particularly around this topic,

Is that we don't let go.

Letting go happens.

It's not something that we can do.

Any will to let go actually complicates the process and is another kind of control or contraction.

It would probably be more accurate to say letting be.

We let things be with a sense of kindness and tenderness and patience and then in its own time,

The heart lets go because the heart sees and knows eventually when the conditions are right,

Our heart will understand holding on here hurts and it senses the freedom,

The spaciousness of allowing things to be the way they are.

Beautifully said.

I agree.

Let's talk about our complicated needs and why is it that we always want our closest partner,

Someone else to meet our needs.

And there are some needs,

Perhaps you can talk about this,

That we can meet on our own.

There are some needs that our partners can meet and there are some needs that we need to look elsewhere to meet those needs.

And I think the key aspect here is to even recognize that you have needs and what they are.

Yeah,

Yeah.

That's a huge shift to recognizing that.

So why don't we start with just a brief kind of definition because even though we all might use that word in English,

It's not necessarily the colloquial usage of the word is not what I mean or what Marshall Rosenberg who founded Nonviolent Communication meant when we use the word need.

Often our associations with that word need are a quality of demand,

Like I need this.

There's that pulling and a contraction,

A grasping and a lack of flexibility.

And that's not what's meant by the word need.

What's meant by the word need is a certain perspective or understanding about human nature.

And that is the view or the premise that comes out of humanistic psychology out of the work of Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers and others that human beings,

That all human behavior,

All human actions can be understood as an attempt to meet deeper underlying needs or values.

So the word need that in this context,

What it refers to are our heart's longings.

The factors,

The qualities in the human heart and mind that motivate us in life,

That actually drive us to engage in different ways in the world.

And the understanding here is that these needs,

These values,

These longings are universal.

That it's part of what makes us human is that we share these qualities that are important to us.

It's not just the physiological needs,

Which are obvious for food and water and shelter,

But need to belong,

A need for acceptance,

A need for understanding,

A need to be seen,

A need for love,

For play,

For touch.

These are all things that really matter to human beings,

As well as higher needs like the need to contribute or the need for meaning in life.

And so we can understand our own choices and actions and the choices and actions of others from this perspective.

And this is huge.

It sounds really basic.

It's like,

Oh,

So we do stuff because there's something important to us.

Yeah,

That makes sense.

But what we're often not really aware,

As you were saying,

Of why we're doing things,

Of what we're actually needing.

We're just focused on the behavior.

We're just focused on the strategy,

Right?

Like,

I need you to listen to me.

Well,

You're the strategy.

You listening to me is my idea for how to get some deeper need for empathy or understanding met.

And when we can begin to identify what it is we're really after underneath for ourselves or for someone else,

A whole world of choice and freedom and empowerment opens up because we see what it is we actually really want.

And then instead of being locked into one particular strategy,

You doing this for me or us going here or this thing happening,

We recognize,

Well,

Okay,

If that doesn't happen now that I know it's actually important to me,

I can be more creative.

I can think about other possible strategies to meet my needs.

In my work,

I identify six needs.

And I found that by working with parents and working with children,

I learned that those six needs surface a lot,

Are the main needs that children have,

At least in their early years.

So I identified those six needs and based my work and everything on those needs.

And one of the needs is autonomy.

I often when I do a workshop,

I jokingly say,

Your children are not going to come out and use a sophisticated language and say,

Mommy,

My autonomy need hasn't been met lately.

Could you give me some opportunities so I can feel like I am doing something independently and I'm in charge?

No child is going to speak like that or an adult even.

We behavior,

Sometimes challenging behavior to communicate those needs.

It's up to us as a parent,

I tell them,

To decode and understand what's underneath this communication.

And once we understand the need,

It becomes so easy to meet the need.

So I developed this framework and it totally makes sense for the people who learn.

And I use it in my life,

In my work,

But a lot of women,

A lot of us,

For example,

We don't know because it could be,

First of all,

We don't know what our needs are.

We're so out of touch.

When I ask people,

Tell me what your needs are,

They're like,

Uh,

Just,

I want to be loved.

I'm like,

That's it?

Like you have one need and you know,

People don't think in those terms,

We're not used to this kind of way of being.

And the second part is even if we know what our needs are for someone like me who has a lot of training in this stuff,

It's hard and vulnerable and very awkward to come out to my partner and say what my intimacy needs are not being met.

Would you please meet those needs?

It's like,

Damn it,

I don't want to do it.

Why can't he just read my mind?

There's so much in what you're saying,

Anna.

I'm delighted to know that you're out there sharing these concepts with parents because it changes the whole game.

You know,

When we can understand our children's behavior through this lens and listen for,

Okay,

What matters to my kid here?

What are they longing for?

And one of the things that I do when I teach is I really actually,

I try to move away from the word need itself because it carries so many connotations that are actually counter to what we mean.

So I try to help people to start to think about it in terms of what matters,

What I value,

What I long for,

Which all has more of a positive connotation.

Whereas need often carries this sense of lack.

I don't have this and I need it from you.

And then we're locked into that relationship of demand energy again.

So a few things.

So one,

With kids and the need for autonomy,

It's such an important need for us as human beings that one of the key things that I like to point out when I work with parents around the children's need for autonomy is that when we place demands on our children because of their need for autonomy,

Their natural response will be to resist.

Yes.

It's healthy.

Exactly.

It's healthy.

The tragedy there is that the more we place demands on them,

The less opportunity we give them to learn how to consider others.

Because if my need for autonomy isn't being met,

That's what's in the foreground.

I'm going to fight for my own sense of choice and freedom and mattering.

And as long as I'm doing that,

I don't have the space inside to recognize or consider you and your needs.

So one of the things that I try to help parents to do is to learn how to engage with their children in a relational dialogue that recognizes their autonomy and rather than placing demands,

Helps them to understand,

I see what matters to you and I care about it.

And I want you to see what matters to me here to help children to learn how to be in a world where both of our needs can be considered together.

However that takes work.

Absolutely.

It takes practice.

It takes time.

It takes energy.

One of the things that allows us to do this,

One of the key shifts that is so essential for parents in particular,

But for all of us as human beings in general,

Is the shift from meeting each other's needs to attending and caring about each other's needs.

So the reality,

I'll say what I mean by that,

The reality of being alive is that we can't always meet each other's needs.

We can't even always meet our own needs.

But what happens a lot of the times in relationships,

Particularly with children,

Is that when we say no,

Or when the circumstances aren't available to meet the needs of one another,

What we hear is,

I don't matter.

We hear my needs aren't important.

What I want for everyone is to be able to give one another the experience of trusting that we matter,

Even if we can't get what we want.

This is super important because if we really trust that someone understands us,

That they care about what we want or long for,

Even if they can't say yes or give us what we want,

There's something in that that's sufficient.

If we felt that we were understood and seen to our satisfaction,

That we really trusted that the people around us understood what mattered to us and cared about it,

How much of the time would we need to have our way?

Just acknowledgement,

Yes,

Is key.

We don't have to meet every need of our child,

But acknowledging that it could be a bad timing.

Your child can ask something.

Yes,

Maybe you want to meet that need,

But not at the moment.

It's impossible.

But acknowledging that to your child,

Making her feel seen and heard,

She will not dig her heels and want it and want it and want it.

And the need then turns into a want.

And then it turns into this supporting her position.

Children and adults forget about the need and it becomes,

Since I am holding my ground,

I'm going to defend this position.

Now we're like fighting together.

Then it turns into a power struggle.

Right.

A colleague of mine who I mentioned in the acknowledgements to my book,

Who's since passed away,

Inbal Kashtan,

Did an amazing amount of work with the nonviolent communication and parenting.

She has a small book called Parenting from the Heart,

I think.

That's quite wonderful.

It's available online.

She tells a story about her son when he was less than three years old.

And she had already,

Even at that very early age,

Been relating to him from this perspective of being aware of deeper needs,

Not placing demands,

But instead being in dialogue and helping him to recognize that all of us have needs and want to be seen and understood and considered.

So early in the morning,

Her parents,

His grandparents are visiting and they're sleeping downstairs.

He starts banging on the floor with a pole.

So what's her job as a parent?

Grandparents sleeping downstairs below,

Two and a half year old banging on the floor with a pole.

Okay,

My job is to get you to stop and your job is to resist.

So fortunately,

She's trained in nonviolent communication,

She has some tools and she doesn't fall into that dynamic of like,

My job is to control my children.

And so she says to him,

She says,

Sweetheart,

Your grandparents are still sleeping.

And I'm feeling worried because I want them to be able to rest as long as they'd like.

Would you be willing to bang on the couch or to stop banging?

So she tells him,

You know,

She tells him what's important to her,

Why,

And she gives him an option to say,

Would this work for you?

So less than three years old,

He looks at her and he says,

I don't want to,

But I'm willing.

So already understanding that difference,

Right,

Between what I want and what I'm willing to do.

And so then she asked,

Well,

How come you don't want to?

And he says,

Well,

It's not waking me up.

So this amazing sense of honesty and the beauty of like his interest,

His self interest,

Like,

If it's not going to wake me up,

Then what you're asking me to do is not a huge,

Yes,

This is exactly what I want to be doing.

And I'm like,

Joyfully going to say yes.

So then she asks,

She says,

Well,

How come you're willing?

And he says,

Because I want to consider you and grandma and grandpa.

I don't know if he used those words,

But yeah,

He probably said something that meant that.

This is a direct quote from her,

Because I want to consider you.

Two and a half years old.

Children can understand these concepts at ages far younger than we expect if we help them to understand that if we speak to them in this way and help their awareness to recognize that we all have needs and we build trust.

They had established,

She had established with him a deep sense of trust that he trusted she was not going to force him to stop banging,

Even though she had the power to do so,

That she genuinely wanted his willingness and wanted to stay in dialogue about it because she saw a larger perspective.

In other words,

For many of us in that situation,

The primary need that we're connected to is the consideration for the grandparents.

I want them to sleep.

I'm considering them.

And because of what I said at the beginning of our conversation around children living in an adult world,

We automatically unconsciously give more priority to the needs of the adult than the needs of the child.

Why should the grandparents sleep in consideration be more important than the child's needs for autonomy and play and waking up?

So she was holding a wider view of this is not just about this incident,

But this is about what am I teaching my child about how the world works when we have different needs.

Then that leads us to raising empathetic,

More compassionate,

Nurturing,

Caring,

Kind human beings.

Often people say,

How can I raise a kind,

Empathetic child?

What do I need to do?

Sometimes it's hard to say you need to do X,

Y,

And Z,

But this is the beginning.

This is the foundation,

How we talk,

How we interact,

How we consider them as human beings from a young age.

This is what's going to lead to that.

They're going to develop those skills.

There is no particular training to sit down and say,

Today we're going to work on being kind.

It's going to be very fake and artificial,

Those things.

And the key here for me is that what makes that possible is the work that we do internally with ourselves.

We need to have that relationship of kindness and empathy with ourselves and be working to internalize these tools and these perspectives so that it just becomes who and how we are rather than something that we're always working at and trying to remember or perform or enact.

It's one of the reasons why I love the theme of your podcast and your work,

Which is that it's that self transformation and growth that expresses itself naturally in how we are that can have such a profound impact on our parenting and our relationship with our kids.

So we spoke about needs.

Marshall Rosenberg has the four step formula,

Observations,

Feelings,

Needs,

Requests.

Can we perhaps talk about that?

Maybe deconstruct an example in real life.

How can someone apply that?

Not in a formulaic way,

But in a more flexible way.

I'll start speaking a little bit about the template.

If you can think of an example,

Maybe from your own life or from working with someone.

It's one of the most common mistakes with nonviolent communication is treating that formula as a script and thinking that it means that we're supposed to speak in that way.

And as you indicated so beautifully,

It's not meant to be used that way.

The structure of nonviolent communication training of learning to identify clear specific observations.

So what happened,

Our emotions,

How we feel about it,

Our needs,

Why,

What matters to us.

We only feel emotions because something matters to us.

And this is a very important shift of connecting our emotions back to our needs rather than blaming others for our feelings,

Which is what we often do.

I feel hurt because you,

I'm angry because you,

I'm disappointed because you,

And then we're entangled.

But actually I feel hurt because I want to be seen.

I feel angry because I want more respect.

I feel disappointed because I really was hoping this would work out differently.

It's our needs that we connect our feelings to.

And then the last component of requests of,

Okay,

Where do we go from here?

What's next?

How can we move this forward?

So this template of observations,

Feelings,

Needs,

And requests is a way of training our attention and our awareness internally so that number one,

We're clear about what's happening for us directly.

And then number two,

So that we are uprooting and transforming any belief or story of blame or judgment that's going to get in the way of the other person hearing us.

This is our habitual training is that when our needs aren't met,

We blame others.

It's your fault.

Rather than being able to make the connection between the other person's actions or lack of action and saying,

When this happened,

It didn't work for me because I'm wanting or valuing this.

We get clear about what's happening for us and transform that perception of blame and judgment and that allows us to be able to speak openly,

Honestly,

Authentically from the heart in a way that the other person's less likely to get defensive about and more willing to hear.

Let's take an example and take it apart.

And if you don't have one,

I can think of one from some of the folks that I work with,

But anything from you for like your parenting work or your own life you want to bring up?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

The common one often is my child didn't clean her room,

Made a big mess,

Go clean your room.

It's been a couple of days.

It's a situation,

Right?

We get agitated.

So the first step here,

And again,

This is where the self connection part of these tools comes in.

The first step here is to attend to the feelings that are present in me.

I want to make sure that when I'm coming to my child that I'm giving myself enough empathy and understanding that I know what's important to me and I'm genuinely interested in engaging in a dialogue with my child rather than I'm going to use these tools to get you to do what I want.

If we are single-mindedly fixated on getting a particular outcome,

Then we can't use these tools in the way that they're intended.

It's not about forcing someone to do something.

It's about finding something that works for both of us and building understanding and connection so that not only are we working together,

But simultaneously deepening our relationship and learning how to live on this planet together.

So the first thing I would encourage this parent to do would be to pause and actually recognize I'm super frustrated,

Really feeling exasperated.

Okay,

What am I needing?

What's important to me?

It's like,

I need her to clean her room.

Okay,

Yes,

That's what I want.

That's my strategy.

What do I actually need?

Oh,

I want some cooperation.

I want some cooperation.

I want support.

And I want trust.

I want to be able to trust that when we make an agreement and you say you're going to do something that it's going to happen.

Yeah.

Okay.

I want cooperation,

Support,

And I want trust that if you say yes,

You mean it.

If you don't want to say yes,

That you'll say no and that we will stay engaged.

Okay.

Yeah,

That's what's important to me.

I wonder what's going on for my daughter.

And now I'm going to imagine,

I'm going to try to open my heart to what might be happening for her so that I'm approaching the situation with some awareness of her genuine needs and humanity that she's not being irresponsible or trying to get me angry or all of the judgments that we make reflexively and habitually as expressions of our needs.

So I'm going to consider maybe she has other priorities.

Maybe she's focused on having fun.

Maybe she likes it when her room is messier than I want it because she feels comfortable.

Maybe it's easier for her to find things.

Maybe she forgot because it's not a priority.

So now I'm thinking,

Oh,

Okay,

Now I can imagine and understand what might be happening for her.

So then I would begin the conversation with some kind of an observation and an opening question.

So I might say,

Sweetheart,

I wanted to talk about your room.

I remember,

And so if you want,

Why don't you,

Do you want to do a little role play together?

Yeah,

Of course.

So why don't you be the child or the daughter and respond however the child might and I'll play the parent.

Sweetheart,

I wanted to talk about your room.

I'm remembering that a couple of days ago I had asked you to clean it and you said you would,

And I'm noticing that you haven't cleaned it yet.

Could we talk a little bit about what's happening and try to figure out how to handle this?

Yes.

Right now I'm just working on my project.

I'm busy.

I have to finish this by tomorrow,

My diorama project.

So you're super focused on your schoolwork and you want to make sure that you finish it,

Yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah.

If I don't finish it,

Miss Diana will not like it,

Mom.

Well,

Sweetheart,

I want you to know I'm so happy that you're really focused on your schoolwork.

You know that you're taking that seriously.

It makes me really happy.

And it's important for me that we have some understanding,

Not even so much about the room but about the agreements that we make.

And I don't need to talk about it now,

But I think within the next day I'd like to find some time.

So I'm wondering,

Do you want to talk about it now,

Later tonight or maybe tomorrow?

What would work for you?

Yeah.

Can we talk about this tonight,

Mom?

I'm really busy right now.

Sure.

No worries.

So right there I'm connecting with what matters for the daughter.

I'm reinforcing the values that she's choosing to meet.

You know,

I'm wanting it to work for her too.

And so I'm communicating there that what you want is important to me.

And I'm also setting a limit.

I'm saying I really want to talk about this within the next day and I offer a few options.

So let's say it's later in the evening,

Project is done.

So let's talk a little bit about the room,

Darling.

Oh,

Again,

The room.

Mom,

Would you let it go already?

No,

I'm joking.

No,

It's fine.

Yeah,

Be real.

I want to pose for a moment and say that when you asked that in the beginning,

Sweetheart,

I really need to talk about this,

The room.

I felt even soft.

You know,

I didn't feel like I want to attack you back.

I'm like,

Yeah,

You know what?

Yeah,

That's fine.

My mom is talking to me.

It felt non-attacking and I felt it.

It feels good,

You know.

We all want to be seen and considered.

And when we approach the conversation from a place of,

I want this to work for both of us.

I want to understand what's going on for you.

And I'd really like you to listen to me and hear what matters to me.

Let's keep going just a few more rounds.

So and resist,

You know,

You're a teenager.

You said,

Oh,

Mom,

Would you just let it go?

So I would say,

It sounds like you really don't want to talk about this.

Is that right?

No,

Mom,

Because it's all you talk about is the room,

Mom.

Yeah,

I can totally relate to that.

It sounds like it's super annoying and you just want to be able to be yourself and like,

Do your thing.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Of course.

And I don't care about the room.

The room is not that important,

Mom.

I totally hear you.

I hear that for you,

It's not important and you'd rather spend your time doing other things.

I really get that.

And what I'd love is actually for us to talk even not so much about the room,

But about the agreements we make,

Because it's less important to me that you clean your room and more important to me that I can trust what you say when you say you're going to do something.

And so let's put the room aside for a moment,

Actually.

And I want to talk about my memory is that a couple days ago when I asked you to do it,

You said that you would.

And so I'm confused because you said you would and you haven't done it.

And so I want to understand what's going on for you there.

I want to just take a guess because I'm guessing hearing what's going on for you now that you said yes just to get me off your back because you didn't want to deal with it.

Was that what's going on for you?

Yeah.

And I also was busy.

I had the project and I had the test I was studying.

I'll do it.

I'll do it,

Mom.

Is that what you really want?

A clean room?

I'll clean it.

I'll clean it tomorrow.

I'm really appreciating how much you're willing to take into account what I want and clean your room even though it sounds like it's not a priority for you.

And sweetheart,

It's actually not what I want.

What I want is for us to really understand one another.

It's less important for me that you clean your room.

And I get the sense that even if you say you're doing it,

You're not really doing it because you want to.

And to be honest,

I don't want you to do it if you're just doing it to get me off your back.

So what if we take the room off the table for a minute and just talk about our relationship and how we talk to each other?

Oh,

Here we go,

Mom.

You again.

No,

I'm kidding.

No,

It's fine.

It's fine.

So again,

It's like I would want to just hear the need behind that.

Yeah,

I get it sweetheart.

It's a drag.

I totally hear you.

You just want to be able to do your thing.

And I really need to trust that if we have a conversation and you say yes,

That you mean it.

And so what I'm wondering,

Because I'm really getting that you don't want to take a lot more time to talk about this is I'm wondering if you would be willing to say no when you really mean no.

And if you say yes to something that I'm asking to really check and make sure that you mean yes so that I can rely and trust when you say yes.

I don't know if I can,

Mom,

Because every time I want to say no,

I don't know.

You probably are not going to like it.

That's why I keep saying yes.

Wow.

That's super important and meaningful for me.

And what I'm hearing is that it's hard for you to trust that I'll actually take no for an answer.

Is that right?

Yeah.

That's really important for me to hear.

And I'm wanting to work on that because as you're growing up,

I recognize that you're your own person and I want you to make your own choices.

So what I can offer is my side of the deal,

My side of the bargain is I want to work harder to be more clear about the things that I can let go of and just accept no on and the things that are actually important for me.

So for example,

You know what,

It's your room.

You can keep it however you want.

But the thing that's important to me is actually the laundry because I'm doing the laundry and I need your dirty clothes enough to do it.

And if that doesn't work for you,

I'm happy for you to do your laundry.

So let's talk about that.

We could go on from there,

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'll do the laundry,

Mom.

I have no problem,

Mom.

I would be happy to do the laundry.

From now on,

I'm going to do my own laundry.

So there you go.

So we see that part of what happens is that the more we get clear on what our needs are and really valuing the sense of open communication and trust in the relationship,

New possibilities open up.

And I recognize as a parent that,

You know what,

This isn't a really hard line that I need to draw.

This is not about safety.

This is not like,

I need to know where you are when you're out and have a phone number that I can reach you at,

Or I want you home by 10 o'clock.

It's not that level of safety.

It's more of a preference of mine.

Why is it a preference?

Oh,

It's actually about the laundry.

Well,

Maybe you do your own laundry.

It's like,

We start to actually get more creative once we really realize what's important to us.

I agree.

I agree.

I think it's a deeper question.

It's like,

Why,

Why does this matter to me so much?

And recognizing and admitting sometimes that we're just doing certain things on autopilot,

Out of coercion and control,

Because it's so easy to control our kids and expect them to listen.

Oh,

You're not listening?

Because our life perhaps was the day that we had maybe didn't go the way we wanted.

Then it becomes very easy to just control our kids because I am the parent.

I'm going to have a sense of control and sense of autonomy.

That need for autonomy is present in us too.

One of the things that came up that I thought was so powerful that you said as the daughter was that feedback that,

You know what?

I just say yes,

Because when I say no,

You don't really listen.

You don't really trust it.

That's a reflection of the pattern.

We have been in a relationship where you use power over me so consistently that I don't actually trust that you are going to honor my autonomy.

So I just say yes to get you off my back.

As we start to use these tools,

We find that one of the things we need to do is to course correct and rebuild trust if we've been operating in a different way.

I do this kind of parenting when I am in a more open,

Conscious,

Mindful that day or that week.

Of course,

Not every interaction I can be like this.

I'm a human being,

But I try to be very conscious and mindful and I know it can yield amazing results and to a beautiful conversation.

Sometimes it just takes my breath away.

The way this dance can go between me and my daughter and I'm like,

Wow,

This is magic.

This is so beautiful.

This human potential,

This willingness to please me and she's not just being difficult and it's so easy.

Just to remember that it's always there,

But sometimes we can't access that because we're so stubborn and coercive and we get into locked up positions.

We get stuck,

Right?

Yeah.

Well,

I think what you're pointing to Anna,

And I love that you bring this in,

Is that one of our other core needs as human beings alongside the need for autonomy is the need to contribute and that it's natural.

It's innate that when we give,

Not because we have to,

But because we want to,

When we're given an opportunity to contribute to others,

That feels really good.

We naturally experience joy when we are helping and contributing or meeting each other's needs.

That's what we're trying to do with these tools is we're trying to open up the space,

The possibility for genuine giving from the heart.

And when that happens,

And that only happens when there's trust,

When there's trust that there won't be coercion,

That all of our needs are being considered and held with care,

Then there's that possibility of saying,

Wow,

You're not trying to just get what you want at my expense.

Now I can relax a little bit and yeah,

Okay,

I could do that.

I could help out.

That's not such a big deal.

I'm happy to do that.

Or it opens that possibility to the sense of flow and joy and giving that you're pointing to.

Yes,

I felt it many times and if I could only do it all the time,

That would be even amazing.

Yeah,

Our patterns run deep and that's why it's a practice.

Yes,

Because sometimes let's face it,

As parents,

We don't have time.

Sometimes I'm in a rush and when we are anxious,

We're in a rush,

We're stressed out.

That's the time when our kids give us the hardest time,

Right?

They're not cooperating.

And for me,

Like in those moments,

What I want for parents is if we are choosing to use our power to still do it consciously and to communicate why we're making that choice.

In other words,

Instead of just,

I don't care,

Get in the car,

You know,

That we can say that we've learned both the language and the presence of mind to be able to say,

Sweetheart,

I wish I had more patience and time right now to do this differently and I can't see another way forward.

I'm really afraid that I'm going to be late to work and there are going to be consequences.

I need some cooperation right now.

Please get in the car.

To be able to communicate that level of urgency and when we are choosing to use power to mourn that to say,

I wish I knew another way to do this and right now I don't have the creativity or the patience.

So get in the car.

I use this technique a lot too.

So just the other day,

My daughter washed her hair,

Bedtime,

Evening,

So freezing here.

You know,

You've been in New Jersey originally,

I'm in New Jersey,

It's very cold and the heat wasn't working in her room and I don't want her going to bed with wet hair.

And you know,

I don't want to say again,

You're going to bed with wet hair.

You know,

How many times did I tell you,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

I found myself going that way because it's evening,

Let's face it,

I'm tired.

Why did she wash her hair again?

She just washed it yesterday.

So just take a moment here,

Anna,

And approach differently.

And I said,

I really don't want you going to bed with wet hair because I'm afraid,

It's so cold,

The heat isn't working in your room.

Can you just blow dry it so I feel a little better that my kid is not going to get sick?

And she's like,

Oh,

Whatever.

So she got up from her bed and she's like,

Mom,

You always worry,

Mom.

I said,

That's what moms do.

That's okay.

You know,

Just dry a little bit.

You don't have to blow dry the whole thing.

And she went,

She did it.

I mean,

She didn't do a perfect job,

But she did it and she didn't want to.

She was already in bed.

It wasn't the perfect communication,

But I sort of communicated my deepest fear,

My worry that she might get sick and that was enough for her to get up and do the thing.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And she understood why she understood the need that she was meeting in you.

Yes.

And it's not like,

Because I said so,

Because it's important.

Sometimes parents just get stuck in their own position instead of explaining like the deepest need.

Don't do that.

Didn't I tell you,

Would you stop doing that?

And when you just reframe it and say,

Why is it so important,

Then your child is like,

Oh,

Okay.

We're willing to cooperate.

I think that's the key to this.

I agree.

I agree.

And one of the things that's powerful about that is the more we use language as parents that encourages or asks or demands that our children do things because of some imaginary external authority,

Because you should,

Because it's the right thing to do,

Because you have to,

Because I said so.

Implicitly what we're doing is we're disempowering our children from their own natural aliveness and sense of desire because those concepts become internalized.

And then as adults,

We live in a world internally of should and have to,

I have to do this,

I need to do this.

I ought to do this.

Rather than being able to recognize why I'm choosing to do this.

In the long term,

When we're able to communicate with our children from that perspective of the needs that are being met through our actions,

Behaviors,

And requests,

We implicitly teach them to be aware of their own needs and to make more conscious choices about their behavior rather than internalizing the messages of obligation to authority that structures our society.

You're speaking my language,

Which is disconnected from your own true authentic self because your needs don't matter.

You don't matter.

You know,

You have to do things out of guilt,

Pressure,

Obligation,

And that's what matters.

That's what's important.

And it's really sad because as we grow up,

We're just trying to undo all of that.

And when I work with people,

It makes me so sad that that's why I started working with parents.

I used to work with kids.

You know,

I realized that by helping parents,

We can at least undo this cycle and raise another generation at least with more consciousness.

The thing that you're pointing to that I think we're on the same page about is that part of parenting in this way isn't just about our relationship with our kids.

It's about building a different society and raising children who have a different level of awareness so that they become adults who view the world and walk in the world in a different way.

Yes,

Our kids are not ours,

Right?

That they come,

But they're not ours.

Another good quote I remember Peggy O'Mara says,

The way we speak to our children becomes their inner voice.

These are powerful things,

You know?

I would love to know,

Oren,

What inspires you as a human being?

Hmm.

A few different things.

I'm inspired by the potential that each of us has to realize something far beyond our small sense of self.

To be in touch with a place that's larger than our sense of self and to live from an awareness and a connection to that place.

That's one thing that really inspires me.

Another thing that really inspires me is the potential to give and to contribute in a meaningful way to others.

And again,

To have our life be devoted and dedicated to something larger than ourselves,

Which is so much what parenting is about.

And maybe the last thing I'll mention that inspires me is the beauty of this earth.

So much that we can learn from nature in the way that everything is in balance and in harmony with everything else and doesn't take more than it needs.

Thank you so much.

I so appreciate your presence,

Your sharing,

The lively conversation we had,

And the role play with it.

I just loved every moment of it.

Me too.

Thanks so much for having me on the show.

And that's it for this episode of the Authentic Parenting podcast.

I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.

I would love to hear your biggest takeaway from this interview.

So let's continue the conversation in our private Facebook community.

Get your ticket to the Authentic Parenting conference and take advantage of the special exclusive offer for the podcast listeners.

Go to authenticparenting.

Com forward slash conference to learn more and get your ticket.

I would love to see you in person and I can't wait to give you a big hug.

We're working very hard to create a memorable event for you.

If you have questions,

Feel free to reach out.

We're here to help.

Again,

To learn more about the Authentic Parenting conference,

Which is May 18th,

2019,

Go to authenticparenting.

Com forward slash conference.

If you live overseas,

If you are a foreign listener and you can't make it to the conference,

Of course we understand.

Here is a phenomenal idea for you to participate.

One of my listeners,

Amber in Australia,

Gave me a fantastic idea and I'm going to read a portion from her email.

This is what she said.

And forgive me for not being able to read in an Australian accent,

Which I absolutely adore.

This is what Amber suggested.

Also I was thinking it would be awesome if somehow your foreign listeners could be part of your upcoming meeting of authentic parent listeners in May.

Unfortunately it's just too far for me to fly.

Maybe overseas listeners could email a photo they like so a collage of images could be made.

Maybe a photo of themselves or their hometown.

I am guessing some people don't like photos of themselves.

Just some ideas.

I don't want to create too much work for you as you sound already so busy.

Yes,

We are very busy with the conference,

But this is a phenomenal idea and I would love to create a slideshow from your photos.

And I would even go ahead and dare you to send me short videos of you sending us a greeting from wherever you are,

Showing parts of your hometown and whatever else you would like to share with us.

I will put together the photos and the videos in one big file and we will share it on a large screen for the entire conference to see you.

I would love for you to be part of the conference in any way you can.

So go ahead,

Send me your photos and videos by March 31st.

That will give us enough time to put together the final product.

I'm so excited.

I am imagining this video in my head already and I'm tearing up.

So Amber,

Thank you so much for this fantastic suggestion.

Until next week,

Connect to the present moment to yourself and your children.

I am Anna Siwold.

Thank you so much for listening.

Reviews

So much to learn from this! One of the most insightful and relatable conversations. Can’t thank you both enough for this- will listen again as I’m sure it will help cement all the lessons to take from this. Blessings to you 🙏🏻

So many helpful nuggets, thank you for sharing with IT community.
Namaste 🙏🏽 ❤️