Making Great Relationships | With Rick Hanson, PhD

What are the key ingredients of a healthy relationship, why repairs are vital and practical tips for improving your relationships.
-Responding to partner's complaints, grievances, and requests can reduce conflict.
-Taking responsibility for addressing partner's needs can improve the relationship.
-Empathy, understanding, and deep listening are crucial for healthy relationships.
-Giving the partner what they want within reason can strengthen the relationship.
-Shared interests and activities contribute to relationship bonding.
-Interests and pursuits may evolve over time, requiring adaptation as a couple.
-Conversation, affection, and physical intimacy are essential for relationship maintenance.
-Balancing individual interests and shared activities is important for autonomy and unity.
-Making agreements about sharing responsibilities and load in the relationship is vital.

Transcript

I am Anna Seewald and this is Authentic Parenting,

A podcast about personal development in the context of parenting,

Where I explore how you can find more calm,

Connection,

And joint parenting through the process of self-discovery and inner growth with a trauma-informed lens.

I'm a parent educator and my mission is to help children by helping parents.

The motto of this podcast is Raising Our Children,

Growing Ourselves.

Today,

Making great relationships.

Relationships are usually the most important part of a person's life.

Over and over,

Studies indicate that relationships make us happier.

But they are often stressful,

Frustrating,

Awkward,

Lonely,

And simply difficult.

I'm sure at some point in your life,

You wanted to know how to change other people.

But as you probably know,

Better relationships of all kinds begin inside ourselves.

While we have limited influence over others,

We can learn ideas and tools ourselves that lead to solid,

Healthy,

Fulfilling relationships with family members,

Co-workers,

Children,

And friends.

I have the honor and delight of speaking with a returning guest,

Dr.

Rick Hansen.

He's a psychologist,

Senior fellow at UC Berkeley Greater Good Science Center,

And New York Times bestselling author.

His seven books have been published in 31 languages and include Making Great Relationships,

The new book,

Neurodharma,

Resilient,

Heartwiring Happiness,

Just One Thing,

Buddha's Brain,

And Mother Nurture,

With over a million copies in English alone.

He's the founder of the Global Compassion Coalition and the Wellspring Institute for Neuroscience and Contemplative Wisdom,

As well as the co-host of the Being Well podcast,

One of my favorite podcasts that he hosts with his son,

Forrest.

He's lectured at NASA,

Google,

Oxford,

And Harvard.

An expert on positive neuroplasticity,

His work has been featured on CBS,

NPR,

The BBC,

And other major media.

He began meditating in 1974 and has taught in meditation centers worldwide.

He and his wife live in Northern California and have two adult children.

He loves the wilderness and taking a break from emails.

I really enjoyed this conversation.

With his usual warmed and practical wisdom,

Dr.

Hansen shared some powerful ways you can improve your relationships,

Whether it's asserting yourself effectively,

Setting and maintaining boundaries,

Communicating your needs,

And repairing after ruptures,

This episode will help you deepen your relationship with yourself and others in your life,

Even if they don't change.

Please enjoy this delightful,

Insightful,

And truly practical episode with Dr.

Rick Hansen.

It's good to see you again.

I don't think last time we saw,

We didn't do video interview,

And I believe it was 2018 when I first spoke to you on the podcast.

And I want to say congratulations on the new book.

I really enjoy it.

I really love it.

It's in true Dr.

Hansen signature,

Very instructional,

Very light,

Very warm,

You know,

And you want to deep into it and read and you can start from any page,

Basically,

You know,

Whatever suits you.

So I really love it.

And it encapsulates,

I think it brings all of your work together in,

In one place in bite-sized pieces doable for a lot of people accessible.

I think it's a successful book.

Congratulations.

Oh,

That's very kind of you.

I hope that was being recorded and you'll use it.

But anyway,

What a wonderful entree into your wonderful podcast and I give my greetings to everyone listening,

Parenting and children,

Mothers in particular,

Extremely near and dear to my own heart.

Yeah.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah,

Definitely.

I want to start,

I want to talk about the book,

But there was an email that was sent to me from one of my listeners.

And I thought,

I think you are the right person to ask this question to.

It's a short email.

I'll shorten it even more,

But this question comes up a lot in our community.

And here it is.

She says,

Somehow I have the feeling that women are far more proactive than men when it comes to healing our childhood wounds and searching for tools to help us throughout the healing journey.

My husband insists in that I want to change him when I suggest looking for therapy to heal his childhood traumas,

Et cetera.

I started my own journey years ago.

I would love to hear advice about what can wives,

Mothers do to overcome these differences with dads,

With husbands in our healing journeys,

Or maybe it's not a gender issue.

And I would love to hear how we can be on the same page of parenting,

Where there is a great difference in the level of consciousness between the members of the couple.

It is a painfully familiar topic that is extremely articulately summarized by the questioner.

So tip of my hat,

Obviously,

Statistically,

You are entirely correct.

Whether it's the gender balance of people who are in psychotherapy or who read self-help books or go on meditation retreats or come to psychological workshops.

It's clearly the great majority are women.

That's just a statistical fact.

I should add that for those for whom gender categories are not so meaningful,

Including potentially not at all meaningful,

There is in that population a very high uptake of mental health explorations and resources,

Probably for obvious reasons.

And so in that context,

Then,

It's a very real question.

Gosh,

I want to try to make sure I don't give a 10-minute lecture here.

So I want to do this in little bites,

If I could.

One opening point is to have compassion for yourself about this issue,

This division,

The ways that it is situated in long-term historical forces that systematically mistreat girls and women in a variety of ways,

And just how it lands on you to feel like you're with a partner who,

Let's say,

Is a good guy.

We're talking here about heterosexual couples,

Who's a good guy,

Not a jerk,

But it feels like there's a gulf,

There's a gap between you and a growing gap,

Even as you,

As a woman,

Focus on your own inner world and the development of it for your own sake and in the service of your family.

So it's a real thing,

It lands there.

Second,

I think that from a practical standpoint,

And Ana appreciated my practical orientation in the beginning here,

From a practical standpoint,

I think it's quite helpful to zero in on what you're really asking for.

That's not euphemistic or vague,

And it avoids the pitfalls of being either really vague in general and hard to understand,

Or not really honoring yourself and what matters to you and what you really care about.

So what is it you really want?

What would make a big difference?

Maybe what would make a big difference for you is that your husband would agree,

We can make agreements about both outer actions and inner actions,

That your husband would agree to spend 10 to 20 minutes a day in different kinds of ways,

Being interested in your inner world,

Just that agreement,

That he would mobilize an interest.

We can mobilize interest as a deliberate act.

And if someone is not willing to treat you like you matter enough to mobilize 10 minutes a day of interest in your inner world,

Respectful interest,

That's a real yellow flag,

If not a red flag,

For a relationship,

Which could then take a person into significant choices.

And what do you do about that?

It's a simple ask.

He might have an ask for you,

What he would wish for 10 minutes a day.

Maybe he would wish for 10 minutes a day of you being interested in his world,

Particularly if you're raising young children,

Which seems so absorbing.

Maybe he'd be interested in 10 minutes a day spread out of just physical warmth and affection that does not have to lead to sex,

But just making a connection at a romantic level rather than simply a functional level of raising a family together.

So zero in on what it is you're actually asking for.

Maybe you're really asking for him to read a book with you and to talk about it together.

That's not a very hard ask either.

Book on relationships,

Book on raising conscious children,

Book on keeping the spark alive in a long-term marriage or relationship.

That's another specific ask.

Maybe I'll just pause right there on my two suggestions about honoring your own and having compassion for how it is for you,

And then zeroing in on what it is you're actually asking for.

Maybe we could talk about strategies that I've seen to get guys to show up.

Yeah,

I love your suggestions,

Especially the compassion part for the woman,

For herself and clarifying what is it that I need?

Sometimes we do go in,

We're evolved,

Right?

We drunk the Kool-Aid and we feel like we're doing so much work and we want the other party to change and our lives will be so much better.

And we sort of come from this higher ground.

And I often hear in my clients,

A woman would say,

His trauma,

His wound.

And I always tell them,

You don't want to diagnose your partner.

Even though you're enlightened,

You know about trauma.

That's not a good place to be.

And you're right.

When we know what we want and specifically we can make a small ask,

The smallest ask that we can,

I think if as partners,

If you are sharing common goals and common values,

Then what is the other party going to say?

No,

I don't want to tune in into your inner world.

Then why are you with that guy in the first place?

Then maybe you have lost interest in your relationship has expired.

I think that small ask is important.

I think what you said,

I agree with that.

That women are often met with resistance from their partners,

You know,

Don't tell me how to parent.

I don't want to read that book.

You know,

Oh,

You're enlightened,

You know,

Everything,

They take it as criticism.

And perhaps because the way we communicate our ask is not in an effective way.

That's why it's met by criticism,

By resistance.

I'm not sure.

You know,

I've definitely felt the same thing in my partnership,

Right?

I've been married for 20 years and when I am kind and compassionate in my ask,

I am met with kindness when I am more critical and judgmental.

Of course,

It's more defensiveness on the other side.

It's very natural and opposite is true,

Too,

Right?

I think what you're saying there,

Ana,

Is extremely wise and comes from lots of experience.

You know,

In my book,

Actually,

So much of it,

The first third of it essentially lays a foundation to get into the hard things,

Right?

But we're going to be much more successful in talking about the hard things with that underlying foundation of befriending yourself,

Getting on your own side,

Cultivating compassion,

Cultivating the kind of combination,

Which is so important,

Of strength with heart,

Heart with strength,

The two together.

And then on the basis of that,

Use very effective communication methods,

Certainly.

A point I'd like to make first is that the purpose of these effective communication methods is not for women to do what they've been forced to do for centuries,

Which is to beat around the bush,

Put up with crap and walk on eggshells to somehow placate and please and manage other people as if it's their job.

I'm not saying anything about that.

If anything,

Actually,

I really support coming to a place of gravity and seriousness about what really matters.

I've just seen that in many couples in my history of working with people,

That sometimes what people will do is they will choose these proxy issues that are superficial,

Like how the dishwasher is loaded or exactly what time the children are put to bed,

Because it's scary to get down to the deep,

Vulnerable,

High stakes,

Real longings of the heart.

And so I think it's important to really honor those fundamental matters.

And nothing I'm saying is about avoiding that.

That said,

Just like you said,

Anna,

Creating a framework of we is really useful.

We are in this together.

And in that framework,

I find it's helpful to just communicate in terms of certain values that are centered in male culture,

Values of teamwork,

Of fair play,

Of pulling your weight,

Not tolerating unfairness,

Not sitting around while other people are carrying the log.

These are keeping your agreements,

Being honorable,

Being a man of your word.

These are very male themes that many men,

Many dads just leave at the front door when they somehow come home,

As if it's a different rule system,

Which is really not okay.

So there can be a creating of a we frame,

Both in terms of we care about each other.

It's for the sake of our children that we come together as a strong parenting unit.

And in this we frame,

We have basic principles of respect for each other and effective communication and caring.

It's in that frame then that it supports our family.

It supports our relationship,

Including the romantic and erotic aspects of it to be responsive to each other,

To be interested in each other,

And to be interested,

By the way,

In another,

I'll finish here,

Another very dominant value in male culture,

Competence.

Becoming competent as a couple,

Becoming competent as parents,

Becoming increasingly skillful.

Skillfulness is a preeminent value among many men in male socialization.

And we can become more competent,

More skillful as parents,

More skillful as spouses.

Aren't you interested in that?

Do you not want to get better at becoming a parent?

Do you not want to get better at being a husband or a mate?

Right?

Anyway,

So I'll finish there.

What do you think about all of that,

Ana?

I'm kind of giving you the inside scoop on the,

You know,

The wacko male mind.

It's pretty good that you highlighted those qualities.

And I think it's very wise as a female listening to this and using and working towards those characteristics or traits in the partnership and speaking to those traits that appeals to men.

I think it's pretty strategic and wise.

If I can interrupt.

And also,

Men don't have a monopoly on values of,

You know,

Competence and autonomy and fair play and so forth.

It's just that so many of those values,

Guys leave them at the front door and it's like a different rule system.

Inside their home,

It's just completely wrong.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Also,

I wanted to say that the asks,

It's not that I'm suggesting a small ask.

I'm suggesting a clear ask.

Yeah.

So if they ask,

I mean,

It's not a small ask to ask another person to take responsibility for what they're doing inside their own mind and to keep bringing their attention back to your inner world and what you're saying,

Rather than wandering off to some sports TV they want to watch as soon as you finish talking.

That's not a small ask,

But it's a specific one.

Yeah.

It's a specific one.

Yeah,

I agree with that.

Because if you want the other party to change so that you could be happy or your life would be better,

It's always the case,

Right?

Somehow we get stuck in that cycle of pointing fingers,

Finding flows in the other person.

If they could change,

If they could do this,

Then I don't have to work so hard.

But I love that everything begins with us.

And your book is also the first chapters begin with the relationship with us,

Accepting ourselves,

Compassion for ourselves,

Caring for ourselves.

Because the most important relationship we ultimately have is with ourselves.

And here you're asking again to put the lens on us instead of saying,

I want you to read this book so that you can change and be enlightened.

And we can parent together the same conscious way.

You're saying,

Can you tune in into my inner world for 10 minutes because I've learned something and maybe we can talk and share.

Again,

It's about us,

Them tuning into us.

It's not about them changing.

I love that a lot.

Well,

That's great.

And part of that foundational work is healthy entitlement.

And what I mean by that is recognizing that you matter.

I mean,

Women,

Girls and women,

You know,

Get thousands,

Millions of messages,

Including implicit messaging in the culture that you are second tier.

Your needs matter less.

It's only after all their needs are taken care of that your needs have any standing.

And so there's an initial piece of work about recognizing that you really matter and building up that own that kind of foundation of calm strength.

Not sputtering and fussing in ways that are not effective and create problems,

Nor being a numb or giving up.

But finding that place of calm strength in which you can move forward.

I think about something that was said about Thich Nhat Hanh,

Bless his memory,

The great activist and Buddhist teacher.

He was once described as a combination of a cloud,

A butterfly and a bulldozer.

And that bulldozer quality of just steady leaning in to what really matters.

I mean,

It's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

So that's part one.

And then part two,

You're exactly right.

Pragmatically,

It's not fair that the other person is letting you down if they are.

It's not fair that they are tuning you out.

It's not fair.

OK,

But what will be most effective?

And this is what I talk about is the 80-20 rule.

Put 20% of your attention roughly on trying to influence them to be better in various ways.

80% on your own side of the street.

Clean up your own side of the street.

That's one of my chapter titles.

There are 50 really short chapters.

Each one is a specific thing you can do with what you say and what you do,

You know,

And think with your mind in your mouth.

In other words,

What can you actually do to make things better?

And one thing that's incredibly effective and counterintuitive is to respond to the complaints of your partner.

Their grievances,

Their requests,

The things you know they'd really like,

And decide for yourself what's reasonable.

Go to the maximum on what's reasonable and then take responsibility unilaterally on your side of the street to handle them one after the other.

Not because you're their doormat or punching bag,

But in fact,

Because as you take care of what you decide is reasonable,

One by one by one,

It turns down the heat of family conflict.

It makes you feel better because you are doing what you can do,

Which is where you have power.

It's over your own actions.

And very soon it puts you in a much stronger position to ask them for what you want from them.

For me,

It was great.

My parents were fault finding and controlling as their expression of love.

They were very loving,

Decent people.

So the controlling part,

I don't like being controlled.

And it was just great for me to realize that changing the frame in which I'm claiming my power to eliminate their complaints,

Partly because I like getting my wife off my back,

You know,

And it makes me happy to feel that,

You know,

To use the Buddhist proverb,

I can enjoy the bliss of blamelessness.

I really have done the max.

And then it puts you in a very strong position to just kind of look at that other person and they know you're delivering the goods.

They know it.

And it's kind of like,

Well,

Your turn now.

Very wise,

Very wise.

You write about empathy here.

You know,

You say poor empathy is the core problem in most troubled relationships.

Without it,

Little good is likely to happen.

But when both people have empathy,

Even toughest issues can get better.

So,

Yes,

I want you to speak about this crucial ingredient of healthy relationships,

Empathy,

And what other key ingredients are necessary for healthy relationships?

Do you think if you if you were to summarize and and come up with a nice recipe,

Empathy being one,

What would the other ingredients be?

Oh,

That's great.

And at the heart of empathy,

Well,

First of all,

Empathy is not agreement.

It is not approval.

We can have empathy for criminals that we think deserve justice.

So we can just because we have empathy for what our partner wants does not mean we have to give it to them.

It's very important,

Very important.

Second,

Along with empathy is a sense of a depth of understanding to slow it down.

You don't have to be psychic or a mind reader or a longtime psychotherapist.

All right.

To tune in to the being behind the eyes.

The longings,

The softness that underlie the surface of brittle anger,

Slow it down.

Give yourself give your inner being time to kind of tune into the inner being of the other person.

That's fundamental in relationships because it gives both parties the sense of being really heard and felt.

OK,

That's important.

Second,

Very practically,

Give them what they want.

I say that a little provocatively,

But deliberately to the maximum that is reasonable that you decide.

Give them what they want.

So it's so often easy to give other people what they want.

It's actually kind of small.

They just want five minutes of sustained,

Focused attention.

They just want more affection.

They they want on a basis that's authentic and safe.

They want to feel like they're they still have a lover who is interested them romantically and erotically.

They don't want to be demanded upon.

They want to be requested.

You know,

They don't want your clutter in the living room.

They they don't want you to bad mouth them to your parents,

Whatever.

You know,

It's kind of radical,

Actually.

Very often there's a deadlock with A and B,

Neither of whom is willing to give the other person what they want,

Even though if one of them just made the first move and did the maximum that's reasonable,

It would break the logjam and also,

Again,

Put them in a strong position within a few days,

If not a week or two,

To start asking more for what they want.

So I think there's a real place in relationships for actually delivering the goods,

You know,

In a behavioral way or,

You know,

With words,

Give them what they want.

Like that's good.

And then I guess maybe one last thing is find things to do together in which you have shared interests,

Co-enthusiasts.

It's really important to carve that out,

Especially when kids come.

What do you each what do you enjoy doing together?

Like,

How do we be together if we don't do stuff that we enjoy together?

If there is not very much you enjoy doing together,

Why are you together?

Except for,

You know,

Circumstances that sometimes are really important,

Financial or,

You know,

You're raising children.

But maybe what you do fundamentally is you kind of realize,

OK,

It's not great,

But it's better to stay together than to part,

At least while the kids are in the home.

But hopefully we want more than that.

So what do you do together?

And really talking about that,

Like my wife and I,

We watch a lot of B plus TV.

Not a lot,

About an hour and a half.

And it's B plus.

It's not once in a while there's an A.

Sometimes it's a B minus.

But it's OK.

You know,

We enjoy it.

It's like one thing after another.

We laugh,

We joke,

We critique the show.

We enjoy certain parts.

We do that.

We always hug each other.

We meditate for a little bit at night before we go to sleep.

We,

You know,

Have things we both care about,

That we talk about.

We do stuff together.

We care about our kids who are 35 and 32 now.

You know,

Look for what you do together.

OK,

Those are my three.

Empathy.

Give them what they want to the extent that's reasonable.

And find things to do that you enjoy together.

And may I ask the things that you do with your wife today?

And you've been together for 40 years,

You said.

Obviously,

When you had kids and at different stages of your couplehood or parenthood,

Have those things shifted?

Looking back,

Do you always find that,

Oh,

We had this in common 10 years ago.

Now we watch this B plus TV,

But before it was something else,

Right?

Then do you find that those interests have changed or they remain the same?

I just want perspective for the listener,

You know,

Because as we evolve and change,

Maybe our interests change.

And I don't want a person to say we used to do this together and now we don't.

But and dismiss what they are doing now.

And sort of maybe that's a cry for that lost years.

You know,

We used to go hiking together.

We no longer hike.

But maybe you are watching TV together now.

So I think having that perspective is important.

So what's your experience?

That's beautifully said.

Well,

Yes,

Certainly things change.

People do get older and all the rest of that.

So I'll just name some honest,

Kind of small things from our own world.

So we together,

I'm interested in my wife's work,

Which is functional medicine.

And so keeping privacy,

She will talk about patients she works with.

And there are interesting issues there.

My work,

She's interested in it.

So right there,

We are together.

I mean,

Yes,

She's the leader on her work.

I'm the leader on my work.

But there is a sense of together.

Another area certainly that is together is we have a common views politically.

So we join in our view about certain things that really matter or are really crazy here in America.

And that's a sense of together.

We're together still in talking about our children.

And I think about the ways in which when children are in the home,

How often rare it is for both parents to do something together with a child.

Very often,

It's one parent with one child or doing different things.

But it's really important to look for ways to do things as a parenting couple that are interesting.

And sometimes it means one parent getting interested in what that other parent is doing with the kid.

Maybe one parent is more sports oriented,

Takes the child to soccer or whatever.

Well,

Maybe that other person parent can hop on board.

Or maybe one parent is more academically involved with the child.

Well,

Then the other parent can join.

Or maybe there's some games.

I mean,

I hate to say it,

But maybe it's time to learn how to play video games and hop on board or something like that.

I think that's really important.

And I have to say as well that I think two things tend to go out the window with couples when children arrive,

Especially the second child,

Or a few years go by,

Parents get older.

Two things tend to go out the window that are really important for knitting a relationship together.

One is deep listening,

Creating space to just listen.

Doesn't have to be a therapeutic conversation.

Just what happened at work today?

What did you care about?

What were the things that really made you mad today at work?

What are the things you liked?

What did you get done?

Just being interested in each other's world and creating a frame in which people can actually have conversation with each other.

Really important.

And to generalize,

It's particularly important for women.

If you think about the top 10 things you'd really would like to,

You'd love to happen over the next half hour with your partner,

What's on that list of top 10 that involve your partner?

Conversation is probably some kind of closeness and feeling heard and sharing emotionally is on that list,

I bet you.

Flip the other way.

The second major thing that I think is really important to knit couples together is some kind of healthy,

Affectionate physical contact.

And on that foundation of healthy physical contact,

Most of which is not at all erotic,

Having some kind of erotic relationship that matters.

And again,

To generalize,

That tends to be particularly important for men.

If you ask a lot of fathers,

How would you like to spend the next half hour?

What's on your list of 10 possibilities?

Sex is probably on that list,

If they got lucky.

And so sometimes what happens is that these two aspects that are ways to keep a relationship knitted together,

So that when challenges come,

It's not already frayed and vulnerable to tearing,

Tearing apart.

You want to keep knitting,

You know,

Mending.

You know,

They go together.

You know,

The foundation of real conversation and feeling heard and listened to and cared about as a person is really foundational to feeling comfortable with,

You know,

Physical contact and an erotic relationship.

That erotic relationship also supports the feeling of closeness and intimacy and bonding,

Including through hormonal releases of oxytocin and other things.

So the two kind of go together.

And if I could wave a magic wand and cut the divorce rate in half,

I would somehow,

You know,

With my magic wand,

Get,

You know,

All the couples in the world to really,

Really have a strong sense of listening to each other and also a strong sense of affection and connection,

Including erotically.

I think that would cut the divorce rate in half.

Interesting.

How important do you think is having individual interests and pursuits?

Like,

I know you do rock climbing,

Right?

You talked about that many times.

I've never heard you say your wife is interested in that.

She's not.

She's the opposite.

But it's also equally important to have our own pursuits and hobbies and interests clearly to maintain our autonomy,

Right?

And then we bring our happy self into this unit and do things together as well.

So is there a right balance?

Like,

What do we do here?

Give us some helpful tips.

Sure.

Well,

To underline an implicit theme and to make it explicit,

Long-time couples counselor,

Long-time spouse,

There's a very important place for essentially coming to shared understandings and even making agreements about certain things.

Just coming to a certain understanding about how often we,

The couple,

Values real listening to each other.

Also coming to a shared understanding.

I'm going to be blunt.

How often we,

As a couple,

Value making love.

Also agreements around things like sharing the load.

And in America,

On average,

The mother in a heterosexual marriage is on task about 20 hours a week more than her partner is.

Just doing stuff.

An extra hour or two and,

You know,

40 minutes in the morning while he reads the paper,

You know,

An hour and a half,

An hour in the evening,

While he watches sports TV.

I'm stereotyping,

But there's a lot of truth in this.

And then you add an extra hour,

A couple hours each day on the weekend.

Very quickly,

You're up to close to 20 hours.

That's an average.

And that means that people like me who are serious about fairness and equity and sharing the load,

There's no inequity for me.

That means there are other families that are doing it 30 hours a week of unfairness.

Extra work for the mother.

So,

You know,

Making agreements around sharing the time load,

Also sharing the stress load.

Men tend to do,

Fathers tend to do things for the family that are lower stress,

Like mowing the lawn,

While mothers tend to do the higher stress things,

Like settling arguments between kids.

Also the executive responsibility,

Sharing that load.

Again,

Mainly mothers are carrying that load of planning,

Worrying,

Thinking,

Being responsible,

Leadership.

Sharing that fairly.

So it's important to make agreements about all those kinds of things.

Absolutely.

So this fundamental idea of how do we come to shared understandings?

How do we make agreements?

How do we establish trust?

How do we establish a frame of accountability and reliability in which each person treats their agreements?

Each parent,

Mom and dad,

Treat their agreements with each other as seriously as they treat their agreements at work.

For many men,

There's a double standard.

They take their agreements at work very seriously and routinely they blow off agreements at home or,

You know,

Rebel against making them in the first place.

So this is a very,

You know,

Broad and important point.

And a lot of the book is about skillful,

Effective ways to move to a place where you establish a new understanding that's stable in your family,

That's really healthy.

A key way to do that is exactly like you're saying,

Ana,

In terms of feeding your own foundations as a being.

And one fundamental way to do that is to make sure that you as a mother are coming out of the red zone or the orange zone of stress multiple times a day,

If only for brief periods.

Because,

Again,

Research shows that,

Particularly if a mother is a caregiver,

She's experiencing more stress than her husband is,

Even if he has a big job,

Because it's more stressful to do a lot of parenting,

Especially in isolation these days.

The so-called village it takes to raise a child is more like a ghost town in many,

Many developed parts of the world.

And so,

You know,

Really helping yourself and really appreciating the absolute need to come out of the red zone,

If only for a minute or if only for a breath,

If only for the few extra minutes you like stay in the bathroom with the door locked,

Even though the kid's banging on the door to just chill out,

Really,

Really,

Really important.

The last thing I'll just say about that is that to the extent you can cultivate some kind of inner practice in which you find a place of refuge inside yourself that's innate.

You do not need anyone's permission to tune into an underlying sense of being,

Which is the foundation for various kinds of doing and thinking and experiencing.

It's the frame,

It's the ground of various experiences,

Thoughts,

Feelings,

Memories,

And all the rest of that.

We tend to get really caught up in the flotsam and jetsam,

Moving down the streaming of consciousness.

And the refuge is to rest more as that field of awareness and ongoing being knows.

Without it being a mystical,

Doesn't need to be mystical,

Doesn't need to be religious,

It could feel religious to some people.

But when you rest there,

Then you're not so agitated by the thoughts,

The feelings,

You're not so agitated by what other people do.

There's more of a shock absorber between you and your own reactions,

And more of a shock absorber between you and all the crazy stuff other people are doing.

And the cultivation of that underlying felt sense of beingness is also something that's a really great way to take care of yourself.

Yeah,

I really love what you're saying about making agreements,

Because often that's not the case,

Right?

We brewing resentment for years,

And then when we want to say something,

It doesn't come across as a request.

It's already so old and covered with anger.

It comes across as criticism and harsh judgment or really demand,

Or people even give each other ultimatums because they're so done and tired of the same issue.

But I think surfacing the issues and speaking about them,

And having those difficult conversations,

It's developing that skill right from the very beginning in relationships.

It can save a lot of relationships.

No relationship is perfect,

But making those agreements,

I think any agreement about any issue,

Be that parenting,

Be that about the workload,

Coming from a nonviolent communication model,

Right?

If we speak about our needs and state our feelings and make small requests or effective requests,

Then we can work together,

As you said in the beginning,

In that we frame again.

And it won't be about too much resentment and too much anger build up.

I don't want people to wait too long to air their issues or to talk about subjects,

Which always the case.

We were never taught to speak from our needs.

We don't know what our needs are,

Particularly women.

And I love your book.

It talks about needs,

Being aware of our own needs and voicing them,

Speaking.

One thing I do want to ask you about is repair,

Which is really crucial in relationships.

I mean,

There's so many aspects to having great relationships.

We can talk about conflict.

We can talk about other things,

But I would love to ask about repairs and particularly how it could be done effectively.

Some people don't believe in repairs.

A lot of people are not good at repair.

So what's required for repair?

Are there prerequisites before we even repair a situation?

Great,

Great,

Great.

Relationships are an ongoing process of repair,

Right?

Because things happen.

Misunderstandings,

Misattunements,

Failures of empathy,

Broken agreements,

Serious grievances,

Unfulfilled longings.

Yep,

It's the real world.

And if we don't repair,

We eventually have a relationship that has just frayed apart and is incredibly vulnerable to becoming torn completely.

So,

Wow,

A couple of things.

So in the book,

Making Great Relationships,

There are a number of specific practices and chapters that really support repair.

I'll try not to give a long lecture.

Maybe I'll just name two or three that really stand out for me.

One is to cop to your own side of the street.

Cop to your own stuff.

What I mean by that,

That's California slang,

Is to use one of my chapter titles,

Admit fault and move on.

So when it's your side of the street,

Try to zero in as fast as you can to the nugget of truth in the cloud of criticism coming your way,

Right?

Most people are not very good at communicating a want to another person or a way in which they felt hurt,

Let's say.

And implicit in the hurt is a want that it doesn't happen again.

You're going to be on the receiving end of various complaints,

Criticisms,

Requests,

Wants,

Whatever coming at you.

It's rarely going to be perfect.

That said,

If you can slow it down,

Zero in as best you can to what you can agree to from now on.

That's a field of tremendous possibility.

Rather than arguing about the past or arguing about how they brought it to you,

As quickly as you can,

Your power place,

Your strongest move,

Actually,

Is counterintuitive.

It's to zero in on what you can take responsibility for,

What you can acknowledge,

And what you can agree to going forward.

Really,

Really important.

That's a very fundamental part of repair.

And in it,

It helps to distinguish between three things that I call moral faults,

Skillful correction,

And gracious gifts.

Very often,

The complaint coming at you is very moralizing.

You're bad.

You did a bad thing.

You should be ashamed of yourself,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

Really,

There's nothing to be ashamed of most of the time.

It was not a moral fault.

But also,

Now learning something about your partner,

You could be more skillful in the future.

Because you want to become,

Remember that value,

Competent.

You want to become more skillful.

And the future is hopeful.

People kind of try to want to pin you to the past,

What you did,

Blah,

Blah,

Like you're a butterfly,

And they're trying to pin you to the board.

Okay,

Whatever happened,

I got it.

I hear you.

I feel it.

I get it.

From now on,

X,

Y,

Z,

And actually do it.

That's the fastest way to get them to shut up and get them off your back.

Admit your fault and move on.

That's one side of it.

Flip the other way.

Let's suppose that they've mistreated you,

Or there's an important thing that happened that hurt you.

And you've internally looked at it.

You've sorted it out.

You've made sure you're not overreacting to the actual scale of it.

Maybe what they did on the zero to 10 misdeed scale was a two,

Right?

Maybe they,

In other words,

Were just sort of harsh and snarky when they interrupted you,

And they kind of did that when you had friends over for dinner and kind of humiliated you.

It's at least a two or a three for sure,

But it's not an eight or a 10.

So we tend to overreact,

Because as you said,

Anna,

We build up this pile of grievances over the years that then when finally we let loose,

It's like nuclear war.

So try to have the communication be in proportion to what happened.

But let's suppose you've done that inner work,

And there are chapters in the book that are about how to actually do that.

And then how do you communicate it?

First,

It helps to establish and have already established a kind of we frame.

We need to do repairs in our family.

We have misunderstandings.

We drop the ball sometimes.

We are not perfect.

So we need to have a way of talking about it.

That's very important to establish that.

It's not about attack.

It's about what's good for our couple and what's good for our family.

And it goes both ways.

I,

Rick,

Am very open to your needs,

Concerns,

Complaints.

I wanna understand it if I drop the ball.

Flip the other way.

You,

Anna,

Are open to my needs,

Complaints.

You know,

You're willing to look at stuff.

So it's both ways,

All right?

In that frame,

Then,

It helps to do what therapists call kind of a slow startup,

Rather than just landing with guns blazing,

As tempting as it is.

I get it.

I've done it.

Try to slow it down.

Try to,

First of all,

Establish that we can talk about something.

Like,

For example,

The next day after your husband,

Let's say,

Interrupted you in kind of a dismissive,

Critical way in front of the other couple at dinner,

Let's say.

You say,

Hey,

Honey,

Can we talk about dinner last night?

Something happened.

I'd love to kind of bring it up and sort it out.

That would help me feel closer to you and,

You know,

More affectionate and all the rest of that.

And then kind of get the agreement.

If the person blows you off and it's important,

You come back to it.

If a person avoids repair,

That's a yellow flag in a relationship.

If a person counterattacks,

Punishes you for trying to repair,

That's a red flag.

It's a serious issue in any ongoing relationship.

And then it makes you realize,

OK,

We need to repair the lack of repair.

And if my partner's unwilling to repair,

Whoa,

That really is something I've got to think about in terms of this long-term relationship.

OK,

But hopefully there's a willingness to repair,

Especially with a little practice at it.

And then you get into it.

And one of the great forms,

As you alluded to earlier,

Is nonviolent communication.

It's a structure in which essentially we say,

I experienced X,

Pardon me,

When X happens or happened,

Described neutrally.

Like when you interrupt me in front of other people and criticize what I'm saying,

That's an accurate description.

Not when you are a complete jerk,

Neanderthal,

I can't believe I married an idiot like you.

No,

X described neutrally like a fair,

Neutral person would.

I feel,

Why?

I feel you are an idiot,

But rather I feel sad.

I feel hurt.

I feel offended.

I feel shocked.

I feel put down.

I feel angry.

I feel worried that you think you have the right to do that.

What does that actually mean about our relationship?

I feel these things because I need to feel connected to certainly right up there with the kids,

The most important person in my life.

I need to feel mutual respect.

I need to feel that you don't have an attitude of dismissiveness and superiority,

Even contempt toward me.

Those are human needs we all have.

So from now on,

I request such and such.

That form may seem a little artificial.

Excuse me,

But that form always feels a little too wordy to me.

Every time when there is like,

You jerk,

You offended me.

That's always so short when we choose the ineffective path.

It's always short and to the point,

But obviously not effective.

But when we choose this non-communicate violent communication form,

It's always like long and explanatory.

And it's like,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

Don't do it that way.

Don't do it that way,

Right?

But what I want to say is sometimes a partner may say,

Oh,

You're so sensitive.

You know,

It's all in your head.

You're so sensitive.

You feel this way.

You feel that way.

So what?

You have feelings.

They may minimize and completely.

Great.

Let's talk about it.

Let's talk about this.

So I'm going to be,

I'm going to be the wife.

Okay.

Oh man.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I'm the wife and I say,

You know,

Bob,

Last night,

Bob,

When you interrupted me,

Um,

I was really shocked.

That was a big deal.

It was like really startled.

You probably noticed I was quiet the rest of the evening.

Um,

I felt actually really quite hurt.

And,

Um,

You know,

Deep down,

I need to feel like I'm with people that respect me,

Don't interrupt me and don't try to dominate me because it's a power move to interrupt people.

And I kind of am really,

I know you didn't mean it.

I know there's a lot going on,

But I'm serious about it.

I really want to hope that never happens again.

How you,

You interrupt me all the time.

And what are you talking about?

You're thinking about this too much.

They didn't even notice it.

You're giving this too much thought to this.

Well,

Thanks for saying that.

I just want to point out that you're minimizing my complaint here and you're counterattacking.

And the bottom line is,

I actually observe however much I interrupt you,

I do not want to do that.

So I request that you do not do that to me in the future,

Especially in front of other people.

Would you be willing to do that?

I'll try.

Yeah.

I mean,

You,

You are disarming me,

Dr.

Hanson.

Like I have no,

I don't know how to act like the,

The guy anymore.

Yeah.

Well,

You did,

You did good right there on us.

So you're the guy,

You're Bob.

Okay.

Bob will then say,

Well,

I'll try.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then what the wife could do,

Again,

You have to decide how much you're willing to raise the stakes.

But you know,

What you could do as the wife is you could just look at him,

Take a breath,

Slow it down,

Stay in a kind of dignity place for three seconds,

Which can feel like a long time.

And you're looking at him and he's going to squirm a little because he knows that you're seeing him as kind of blowing you off.

And you just sort of look at him and you just say,

Well,

I appreciate that.

And I know that you are serious about trying.

In other words,

Try to see the best in the other person.

I know that you're serious about trying and I appreciate that.

You're going to be on that in the future.

And I will too.

I will too.

Because when we're around other people,

We each need to feel supported and respected by each other.

That's a normal human need.

It's not about being sensitive.

It's not about being a girl.

It's about human.

And just think about how people are at work.

They don't interrupt each other in a critical put down kind of way in business meetings.

And if they did,

Their boss would call them on it.

It's not appropriate to do that.

Much the same way,

I think it's not appropriate to do it in our personal relationships either.

So thank you.

Thank you,

Honey.

I'm glad we're going to do something different going forward.

And it feels good,

Actually.

It feels good.

And I like how the wife is staying strong and stating their message.

Not chasing the bait.

Not getting distracted.

She's throwing all kinds of crud out.

I've been there.

I've watched it.

I've watched it.

So,

Yeah,

This is good.

We should do more role plays.

Let's do one more because this is very important and it's very instructional for people,

Right?

In that moment,

You don't want to be caught up in the minutiae of things.

I'm a divorce mediator.

It's always future forward,

Future focused.

The process has to be future focused.

If you're digging old things,

Oh man,

It's such a bad place to be.

Right on.

OK,

What's your next role play?

What's your next nightmare scenario?

Oh man,

What's my nightmare scenario?

I don't know.

Let's say you are being ignored by your partner.

Let's say your partner says,

Do you want to go somewhere?

And you say yes.

You get into the car and he gets a phone call or she,

Let's say he gets a phone call and this was your time together,

But he's answering this phone call and it's not an important phone call,

But you feel dismissed,

Ignored,

Hurt.

You know,

Old stuff comes up for you perhaps.

And how do you talk about that?

How do you bring that up?

Do you stew and wallow in your pain and look at him like you're disgusting and give him the cold shoulder,

Don't talk to him and hope that he will get the message?

Or how do you bring this up?

Sure,

Great example.

Just briefly,

There was this Instagram reel the other day.

It shows the husband and the wife.

The wife says,

The husband is just sitting quietly doing something on his computer.

The wife goes,

Look at him,

Look at him.

Oh my gosh,

I can't believe that,

You know,

And she's criticizing him.

And he goes to himself,

Wow,

It's been so quiet today.

Wonder what's going on.

Like they're both clueless.

They don't know about their conflict.

So it is important that we speak up,

Raise the important points.

I think it's crucial.

If we keep it inside,

It's going to fester,

Become more toxic,

And it's not helpful at all.

So let's talk about this other situation when a woman feels ignored.

It could be also they're watching TV or some other situation,

But.

Yeah.

So it depends on the situation,

Obviously.

If the agreement is we're in the car,

We're going to go have dinner,

Et cetera,

And suddenly he's on the phone,

How long is the phone call?

Is it just literally three minutes,

Which could feel like a long time,

But is it just three minutes?

And what can you do in that situation?

That's kind of very specific.

I can imagine,

You know,

If it's just three minutes,

Taking a breath,

Slowing it down,

Looking at him.

I think the facts are useful.

So look at the clock.

Look,

You know,

Think about how long is this actually going?

Because it's very helpful to be on the facts.

Maybe after a minute or two has gone by,

You just kind of move in your seat.

You get his attention,

You turn sideways.

You're trying to find out,

Is this an emergency?

Is this like,

Is your husband a doctor and this is a medical emergency?

Or,

You know,

Is he a contractor and someone's calling about the fact that their roof has a leak and water's pouring into their home?

Or is this some trivial nothing about somebody who wants to talk about a recent football game?

You know,

What's really going on here?

Then maybe you kind of put your hand on his thigh or you kind of touch him.

You look at him like,

You know,

You're communicating.

You don't need to escalate more than what's necessary.

There's a sweet spot.

Don't under escalate.

Don't over escalate.

Find something that's reasonably proportionate to what's happened in the particular,

Even though the history is going to make,

Going to tend to make you want to over escalate.

So that's part of it.

And then afterward,

Sometimes you don't need to say anything,

You know,

Because they get it.

They know,

You know,

And then see what he does.

Is he a little apologetic?

Does he casually think that in the gender roles,

It's okay for men to keep women waiting?

But if women keep men waiting,

How dare they?

That's interesting to talk about.

You might even just raise it abstractly.

If you have that kind of husband,

Say,

Hey,

Honey,

I wanted to ask you what your opinion is.

I read this thing recently that,

You know,

Men and women on average,

Especially in couples,

But even in kind of ordinary life,

Who tends to keep the other one waiting?

Is it women who tend to keep men waiting more often when they have an agreement to do something or is it men who tend to keep women waiting more often?

What do you think,

Honey?

You know,

And then maybe into it.

So that's one thing.

The other thing about more generally,

And I know we're kind of moving to a close here is let's suppose that,

You know,

He's doing something.

I deal with this with my wife a lot.

He's doing something,

He's working,

Or he's allocating his attention to some website he's interested in,

His Facebook feed,

Whatever it is.

He's allocating his attention to something.

I think it's important to be respectful about where people are allocating their attention,

Which is our most fundamental property,

If you think about it,

And not just take their attention unless it's really necessary and appropriate.

And maybe it's based on an agreement.

And,

You know,

The agreement is we're starting the meeting now and they're still checking their phone,

You know,

Under the table.

That's not okay.

So it's appropriate to ask them to give their attention to the meeting.

But I find often we're in situations where people could be the man is putting his attention on something and the wife just walks in and tries to take his attention without asking permission.

Oh,

I'm guilty of that.

I think everybody is guilty of that.

It's an implicit demand.

If you think about it,

It's invasive.

And,

You know,

This point cuts both ways when it's appropriate the other way.

So what's appropriate is more to knock before entering,

As it were,

Hey,

Is this an okay time?

Or let him know if something's urgent rather than,

Oh,

He just thought of something,

Want to talk to him.

Well,

Maybe he doesn't want to talk to you right now and he has a right not to talk to you right now,

Right?

And that's a principle that cuts both ways.

In that context,

That said,

There need to be places when you're raising kids together where you give each other your full attention and you don't just live in separate worlds.

And then you start making agreements,

Including very kind of implicit agreements,

Just understandings about how we do come together each day.

And there's a classic line,

Fences make for good neighbors.

In other words,

If you meet the need of the person who wants a lot of contact,

Which typically is the woman,

She has high intimacy needs.

If you meet those needs,

Man,

She's more likely to give you room to breathe on going off somewhere with your friends on the weekend to do something for half of a Saturday.

Flip the other way,

If you maybe have high autonomy needs or introversion needs,

You want to go off in your own world.

If those needs are adequately fulfilled,

Then that person who's had those needs adequately fulfilled has more bandwidth for moving into relationship.

And here too is an area where you can kind of make agreements with each other,

Where you're,

You know,

It's a quid pro quo.

Here,

You're kind of making a deal.

Okay,

We're going to meet my needs for intimacy and connection.

Emotional intimacy is what I'm talking about here.

We're going to meet my needs for connection and we're going to meet your needs for separation,

For being in your own world.

And we're going to meet your needs for being in your own world in a way that helps you meet my needs for connection.

That's a very useful kind of deal.

As I'm listening to you,

I'm thinking,

Wow,

This relational intelligence,

Relational stuff,

We should be taught in schools so that,

You know,

So that when we make relationships,

We can keep them and make them great ones.

That's my book right there.

That's your book.

Making Great Relationships.

It's so hard to do this on the job,

So to speak,

On top of doing other responsibilities,

Number one.

Number two comment would be,

Oh my goodness,

How many agreements do we have to make with our partners?

It would be an interesting idea to write a book,

You know,

Making agreements with your partner and list the hundreds of hundreds of agreements we need to make.

Of course,

That's kind of a joke comment.

But one thing I want to end on is why is it that we're so polite and respectful with our colleagues and other people,

But when it comes to our loved ones,

We're so entitled to their attention.

We're so rude and critical,

Judgmental.

And,

You know,

Why is it that we get used to being together and this habituation makes us,

Gives us sort of license to treat the other in poor ways.

It's like,

I always think about that.

And we do that with our partners.

We do that with our kids.

We have this entitlement,

I guess.

Why is that?

It's a great question.

As we finish here,

First,

I'd like to point out that it might seem like hundreds of agreements.

Really,

They're usually about three.

Okay,

So what are those?

Yeah,

Basically agreement to respect each other.

Just respect,

Ordinary human respect,

Rather than disrespect or treating the other person like an it.

You respect the being,

The beingness,

The personness of that other person,

Respect.

Second major agreement is do your share.

Pull your weight.

That mainly lands on men.

Do your job.

Yeah,

You're better than your dad,

But that's a freaking low bar.

And you can do a lot better than that.

Fair is fair.

Really,

Really,

Really important.

And I think a third major agreement is that we agree to repair.

We're willing to repair.

Hey,

You know,

Respect work ethic to your job and repair.

That's pretty good right there.

Maybe there are like two or three others,

But those are pretty fundamental.

And so much else comes from that.

And it's when those go out the window that a couple is in big trouble.

And then I think the last thing is,

You know,

I've been a therapist a long,

Long,

Long,

Long time.

And I noticed that it's led me to these two kind of fundamental themes or engines,

Really engines of good,

Long,

Fulfilling relationships.

One is the matter of bringing a warm heart.

Bringing a warm heart to the other person,

Finding heart for them,

Not letting yourself get bitter and poisoning.

Don't let ill will poison your heart.

Yes,

It's fine to feel anger.

Don't let it turn into hate.

Okay,

Warm heart.

And the other,

Frankly,

Is effort.

Make an effort.

Don't just give up.

Don't just phone it in.

Make an effort every day.

No doubt,

Make an effort.

And that includes making an effort to come to mutual understandings with your partner that you actually deliver on.

Deliver the goods.

It sounds so blunt and fundamental,

But boy,

I've really seen a lot of people,

A lot of people just slack off on both of those.

And both of them are really important.

And I'm not saying typically,

Again,

To women who are already overburdened in their families,

Oh,

You should do more.

I'm just saying in general.

In general,

Make effort.

Anyway,

I hope that's not too much like a coach,

But it's from the long experience of what actually helps.

No,

It's not.

I truly value your wisdom,

Your experience.

Thank you so much for making time for this conversation.

I really enjoyed it.

Then once again,

I really love the book.

I think it's so useful and timely.

It's so easy to read.

Just reading the titles of the chapters is so relaxing and soothing,

I have to say.

Oh,

That's great.

In this part five,

Speak wisely.

Watch your words.

Say what's true.

Speak from the heart.

Ask questions.

Express appreciation.

That's a good one.

I should have asked you about more appreciation.

Or try a softer tone.

Oh,

That goes along the way.

Just reading this makes me a better person already,

Seriously,

Because it conveys what it is.

I don't need to learn the practice.

It's so reassuring that we can make great relationships.

We just have to make some effort,

Show up for one another,

Have the we frame,

Take care of our side of the street.

I really love that expression and foster connection.

I think it's so important.

Relationships are what makes us happy.

And it's worth investing in them and repairing,

Especially,

Right?

Saving them.

Yeah.

Well,

It's been a pleasure,

Ana.

And I wish everybody the best who's listening.

And just remember that you have the power in what you think and say each day to make a better relationship.

And even if they never change,

And even if you have to resize the relationship,

That's one of my chapter titles.

Even if you have to really even shrink the relationship to a very,

Very,

Very small size,

Whatever they do deep down inside,

It can be a great relationship for you based on how you protect yourself,

How you stand up for yourself and what you do inside yourself.

So anyway,

Thank you very much.

It's been great.

Oh,

My goodness.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.