How To Navigate Family Drama During The Holidays

World-renowned trauma treatment expert, and Harvard-trained psychiatrist Dr. Frank Anderson on navigating difficult family dynamics and conversations, managing conflict, and dealing with emotional triggers. He discusses how to shift the focus from having the 'perfect' holiday to managing expectations, embracing all emotions, staying present with feelings of loss and grief, and challenging old family narratives.

Transcript

Support for Authentic Parenting comes from listeners like you.

Since 2015,

This podcast has been fully listener-supported,

And we rely on your donations to continue bringing you valuable content on a weekly basis.

Thank you for your generosity.

I am Anna Siwol,

And this is Authentic Parenting,

A podcast about growing ourselves while raising our children.

I am a psychologist,

Educator,

And parent coach,

And on this podcast,

I explore how you can connect to your authentic self,

Practice radical self-care,

And raise emotionally healthy children.

Let's break the cycle of generational trauma for a more peaceful,

Kind,

And compassionate world.

Today,

How to navigate family trauma during the holidays,

Managing conflict,

Triggers,

And emotions.

I have a returning guest on the show,

Dr.

Frank Anderson.

He first appeared in episode 404 called Truth,

Trauma,

And Transformation.

Dr.

Frank Anderson is a world-renowned trauma treatment expert,

Harvard-trained psychiatrist,

And psychotherapist.

He is the acclaimed author of To Be Loved,

A Story of Truth,

Trauma,

And Transformation,

His memoir,

Transcending Trauma,

And co-author of Internal Family Systems Skills Training Manual.

As a global speaker on the treatment of trauma,

He is passionate about teaching brain-based psychotherapy and integrating current neuroscience knowledge with the Internal Family Systems IFS model of therapy.

Dr.

Anderson is the co-founder of the Trauma Institute and Trauma-Informed Media,

Organizations that promote trauma awareness,

Education,

Integration,

And healing.

He is a lead trainer at the IFS Institute under Dr.

Richard Schwartz and has a long affiliation with Dr.

Bessel van der Kolk and the Trauma Research Foundation.

Dr.

Anderson maintains a private practice in Harvard,

Where he lives with his husband and two sons.

He's been featured on outlets including Good Morning America,

School of Greatness podcast,

Dear Daddy podcast,

MindBodyGreen,

Parade,

And Psychology Today.

Holiday season is upon us and it could be quite challenging for many of us.

In today's episode,

Dr.

Anderson shares insights on navigating difficult family dynamics and conversations,

Managing conflict and dealing with emotional triggers.

He discusses how to shift the focus from having the perfect holiday to managing expectations,

Embracing all emotions,

Staying present with feelings of loss and grief,

And challenging old narratives.

I really enjoyed reconnecting with Dr.

Anderson and this is a really fantastic,

Relevant,

And truly deeply insightful conversation.

I hope you find it helpful.

Please enjoy and thank you for listening.

Welcome to the podcast again.

I am always so delighted to invite returning guests.

This year,

It's been marked with returning guests because the podcast is 10 years old.

Of course,

You want to invite the same people again back,

Right?

I'm happy to reconnect and today we want to talk about holiday drama and trauma.

Holiday season is upon us and people get together,

Family dinners,

Celebrations,

Gatherings,

And of course,

It can be a very stressful and even traumatic time for people,

Right?

How can we navigate the expectations,

Difficult family conversations,

Especially after the election and so much more?

Do you have a memory?

I don't remember from your memoir and forgive me if I am not remembering it.

Was there a story around the holidays in your book?

Yeah,

So I have several memories,

But I didn't put all of them in the memoir.

Let's put it that way,

Right?

Yeah,

I'll talk about the one that is in the book,

But several memories around the holidays in a complex way,

I'll say that.

I remember one New Year's Eve and my cousin's parents had just gotten divorced and we were very close to my cousins.

I mean,

We grew up with them.

That was a New Year's Eve celebration of sobbing and crying because the end of their family was kind of broken up and the adults got all drunk and the kids were,

Everybody was crying.

You know what I mean?

I was like,

That one sticks out in my mind.

It's like,

Wow.

It was so intense and emotional,

But it was also cathartic because everybody just kind of felt their feelings like 10,

9,

8,

It was kind of like that,

You know?

But I would say the most traumatic memory for me,

And this one I did write about,

Was going to those same cousins for Christmas.

They were all,

My uncle was a doctor.

They always had big,

Lavish parties and it was so much fun.

We had food and presents and my dad was over-served for sure because on the way home,

And my uncle lived in the woods,

Like kind of like far away in the woods,

Not 45 minutes away from our house.

But my dad,

We were all packed in the car,

Including my grandmother.

She was sitting next to me and my dad drove right off the road into the woods and he missed the turn and we were bouncing in the woods and my grandmother's in my head hit the ceiling and it was such a scary,

We were just,

And he stopped,

Right?

It was snowing out,

You know,

The weather conditions were not good and we were all shocked and we didn't know what to say.

And eventually,

I don't know how he backed out,

But he backed out and got back on the road.

And my mother said,

Phil,

I should drive.

I should drive.

Let me drive.

Let me drive.

No,

I'm fine.

Jesus Christ,

Leave me alone.

You know,

Nobody needs to,

He was just like so angry and defensive.

And it was that combination of his anger,

Everybody knowing he was drunk and total silence.

We couldn't say like,

I remember driving all the rest of the ride home in total silence,

Kind of being panicked as a kid.

I was 10 maybe or something like,

Oh my God,

We almost died,

You know,

And oh my God,

Don't say anything.

Do you know what I mean?

So it was this kind of thing around remembering being a kid,

Having these overwhelming experiences and no real safety or framework to process anything.

That was the end of the discussion.

Nobody ever,

What was that like for you?

Was that scary?

I'm so sorry.

Nothing.

You know what I mean?

It was like,

Not another word.

Boom.

And there was that kind of confusion of like kids going through something,

You know,

And kids have an intuitive sense of right and wrong.

They do.

And then to have something that feels so uncomfortable and so scary,

And then to be in an environment where there's no language and there's no discussion around it.

And,

You know,

And you just kind of disconnect and move on,

You know,

And it's,

That's an important thing to kind of not perpetuate in your families growing up now is to kind of,

Yeah,

Difficult,

Scary things can certainly happen.

But there's really a process,

A way to talk about things,

Work through things,

Own them,

Take responsibility and create the safety for kids to be able to process their emotions around.

Yeah,

So true.

I mean,

But I guess I think many people still kind of do that,

Right?

Yes,

We are aware and conscious of parenting and things like that.

I observe it,

This pattern that you're describing so much,

Even these days.

Well,

It's the shape parenting.

Yes,

It's so shocking,

Even in quote unquote,

Good families,

Educated families.

I see that it doesn't get addressed,

The father or the parent.

Usually I've noticed from the father's side,

I just was working with someone who,

You know,

This person was describing an experience similar to that,

How the parent doesn't take responsibility.

It's like almost gaslighting,

Right?

It's like,

Oh,

Own up.

It's okay.

You're mature.

You're a grown up.

Like,

It's the shame.

It's the trauma of the person.

It's so much like,

It's so complicated,

But we have to break that silence.

And I feel like there's two options sometimes,

Either violence or silence,

How we solve problems in our culture.

Yes.

And,

You know,

If someone doesn't want to do the reactive parenting or they want to curb their,

You know,

Reactivity,

They go into the silence mode.

But besides the silence and the violence,

You know,

There are other options,

Which we have to learn.

You know,

It's not like it's available.

They know what to do,

But they're choosing not to do.

Well,

You know what to do,

But in the moment when you're activated,

You don't.

Like that's the thing that's important for people to,

Everybody knows right from wrong.

Kids know right from wrong.

But when you're in the midst of that,

Like,

You know,

Shame attack or the transgenerational trauma,

When your wounds from your history are being activated,

It's really hard to have that perspective.

You know,

It's more about self-protection in that moment than it is about a healthy repair with your child.

When your stuff gets act,

Your parts are in self-protective mode.

They're not caring about the best interest of the kid.

And when parents don't take responsibility,

Kids do.

Yes.

So it's true.

This alignment of responsibility,

Like,

You know,

What did we do wrong?

Like,

I remember sitting in that car on the way home.

Like,

Was it me?

Was it my mom?

Because she spoke up to my dad and said,

Don't drive.

I'll drive.

You know,

You're too,

You're over-served or whatever she said,

You know,

Whose fault is it?

Right?

So when the person responsible doesn't take responsibility,

They're in a shame attack and they're trying to self-preserve,

Then kids really twist those.

Those are just distorted beliefs around responsibility.

Oh,

It must be me.

It must be my fault.

What did I do?

And that's how wounds form.

That's how generational trauma continues.

Yeah.

And that's the worst kind of wound,

Right?

Because it happens on many,

Many,

Many occasions,

Very casually.

And you don't even think about it.

You swim in it and then you grow up and you realize that was a relational trauma.

You know,

Yesterday I was talking to a client who is,

After so many years of horrific life partner,

He's now only divorcing.

And I'm like,

How come you didn't stand up for yourself?

You didn't divorce earlier.

Like,

What happened?

He says,

Because I saw my mom putting up with my father's violence.

And I thought that was what normal people do.

It's so normalized,

The violence,

That we don't know how to stand up to it,

How to address it.

And the person who commits the violent act,

They commit in the first place because of that shame attack or the trauma,

But then they are swimming in even more shame because of what they just did,

Right?

So it becomes harder to even face it yourself,

I feel like.

Well,

One of the things I do talk about a lot is when we experience these overwhelming life events,

We absorb the energy of the trauma,

Like that gets absorbed,

But so does the energy of the perpetrator.

We absorb both.

So,

You know,

When you have a violent father and a passive mother,

For example,

You absorb the violence of your father and you absorb the passivity of your mother.

So you have,

You know,

Two templates for how to respond.

You know,

It's one of the things I write about in my book because,

You know,

I was married to a woman.

And then after I came out,

I had this relationship with a man.

Striking how when I was with my then wife,

I was more like my father and she was more like my mother.

I married a passive person and I was more controlling.

And then when I got out of that relationship,

I totally shifted.

I became more passive and accommodating.

And I was drawn to this guy who was very violent and explosive,

You know,

Because those are the templates that we hold inside of us.

Those are our examples of intimacy.

You know,

It's very unusual to do something totally different when that's what you're used to.

I mean,

Sometimes we do the 100 degree opposite,

Like,

Right?

Like my parents were so controlling.

I'm going to be totally loosey-goosey and lax and put no boundaries on it all.

Like sometimes we do the exact opposite,

But oftentimes we recreate what we experience because it's familiar and it's what we know,

Even though we're trying to do better.

So during this holiday times,

What practical things you can share to help people how to navigate the stress,

The overwhelm,

The expectations,

The difficult conversations,

The gift giving.

I mean,

There's so much to this topic.

Where to begin?

Let's start somewhere.

Well,

I like to break it down into how do you as the adult want to manage your holidays and how do you create an environment for your kids to have a different experience?

So those are two different things and they often overlap,

You know,

Because parents who are going through the holidays have this whole,

Oh my goodness,

I want to make this different than mine or I want to recreate exactly what mine was either way,

The gifts or the burdens,

You know?

And so there's this unnecessary pressure,

Right?

That we put on ourselves to make it perfect.

I remember this one.

We took my kids to Disney World,

Like it had to be perfect.

You know what I mean?

And there was so much pressure because it was so expensive.

It was such a big deal.

So one is just like have realistic expectations.

It doesn't need to be the hallmark Christmas every single year,

Right?

It could be a normal experience because we tend to make up for what we didn't have in this way.

So hold realistic expectations is really important.

And when you're in these family gatherings,

Your history will come up.

Your unresolved issues will come up.

People are going to say the things they used to say.

The stuff is still there.

So you have to hold an awareness that your feelings,

Your unresolved feelings are going to resurface.

And so are the people around you.

So,

You know,

How to navigate that I think is really key for parents,

For adults,

You know,

And to be aware ahead of time,

Like,

Wow,

Post-election,

My family,

Conservative Midwesterners,

I'm not talking politics.

Like,

I don't want to go there.

If we're going to discuss distressing events,

The holidays,

We're going to turn them into something else.

So I say,

Hey,

Guys,

I want to have a good time.

I don't want to talk about politics,

Like to speak your boundaries.

You know,

I really want to spend time.

We see each other so rarely.

Let's see if we can have a really good time together.

Talk about things you have in common.

Don't talk about your differences,

Right?

This is not the time to grieve your unresolved issues or to,

You know,

Air your dirty laundry,

Not during the holidays.

Do it at a different time.

You know,

This should be a time that's about joining love and connection,

Not about resolving unpassed issues.

So kind of make it appropriate for what it is,

Right?

Have an exit plan.

Like if things get heated,

I think I'm going to take a break or I'm not going to go to that party or I'm,

You know,

It's so hard to set boundaries because when we're kids,

We don't have the power to do that.

But when we're adults,

Even with our parents,

We still have we got to learn that we have the power to say,

No,

I'm not going to attend that one or I'm going to leave early or I'm done with this conversation.

I'm going to step away.

Very hard to do.

But like you said,

I love the phrase silence is so much less toxic than violence.

Silence is less toxic than violence.

You know,

Don't say it.

It's not the time.

Right.

So that's kind of some strategies I say with adults,

You know,

Empower yourself.

This is not about reworking anything.

This is about setting limits and having realistic expectations.

Right.

And from a kid's perspective,

And this was so powerful for me with my two boys growing up with my parents,

Our kids have different relationships with their parents than we do.

And it's really important to hold that awareness.

My eldest son loves his grandpa so much.

And so I really relish in his having a grandfather in a way that I didn't have a father.

Like it's OK for your kids to have very different relationships than you do with these same people,

Because it's a whole different experience.

You know,

My dad was so treated.

My boy is so special.

You know,

Was he making up for lost times?

I don't know.

But he was a grandfather,

Not a parent.

He no longer had to teach.

So let your kids have a different relationship with your parents or your family than you do and hold that they're allowed to have a different relationship.

Right.

And talk in developmentally appropriate ways about what they're observing.

If they see the tense conversation at the dinner table,

Don't pretend it didn't happen.

On your way home or driving back to the hotel or whatever it is.

I wonder if you noticed that conversation I had with grandpa.

Here's what was going on for me.

What was that like for you to really outside of the outside of the kitchen table,

You know,

To follow up when kids do observe?

You try to keep them out of the mix,

But sometimes things get heated quickly.

Make sure you process it with them in a safe setting and check in.

I always say,

Listen first.

What was that like for you?

Validate their experience and then share what was going on for you.

You don't share first because kids need to be heard first.

Then they're much more receptive to listening to your view.

So there are and those things are very corrective and very healing.

Yeah,

I agree.

That's such a wonderful point.

And yes,

Listening first,

Because if you share,

Then you may overshare.

But because you're coming from your history and from all sorts of layers,

But your child just observed something and they may not have the same reaction as you do,

But you don't want to overwhelm them with your own emotions or your reactivity and things like that.

It's important.

Yes,

I like that question.

What was it like for you honoring your child in that moment and processing when you're ready?

Sometimes I think people want to address things or do the repair.

Parents know the value of repair,

But they do it too soon when they're not ready.

Can you say a few words about checking in with yourself to know when you're ready?

How to know when you're ready to process with your kid,

Either something at the holiday table or something that occurred between parent and child?

It's a great point.

And people do tend to repair way too quickly.

And it's premature.

And it doesn't have the same impact in my experience.

I say,

Have compassion for the person you are upset with before you start repairing.

So if you have an argument or disagreement with your kid,

Step away,

Take a break,

Have compassion for them before you enter the discussion.

Most people are still residually feeling things.

And so they get it out in the repair.

Or if you had an argument with your parent at the dinner table,

Have compassion for them before you discuss it with your kid,

Because then you're bringing it up in a very different way.

So that's my thing is have compassion before you attempt to repair.

Then you're not hold,

You're not still residually holding anything,

Which is really important because you can feel it anyways.

You could feel the energy,

You know,

Versus you can feel that kind of,

Oh,

Okay,

This is a safe discussion because there's no energy attached to this.

It's,

Yeah,

It can feel safe.

Yeah,

I think that's one of the ways to minimize that violence cycle,

The reactivity,

Right?

If we're bringing that reactivity to even repair and while we're repairing,

Then it's not good.

No,

It's not real repair.

Yeah,

We want to give our children experiences of repair in a safe conversation style way so that they will learn how it feels,

That energy,

Right?

If you haven't recovered,

You're not capable of creating a new experience for them in a way that's not kind of similar to your history.

How about conversations around the dinner time of where the conversations are inappropriate and there is children?

How do you handle that dynamic?

Do you reprimand the adults?

Like,

Do you remove your kids,

You know?

I use the we,

We,

We.

We don't talk at the dinner.

Our family doesn't talk like that at the dinner table.

You know,

We name something or we don't discuss sex at the dinner table or we don't swear when we're having dinner.

You know,

That's not how our family does it.

So to kind of acknowledge the difference.

Ah,

What's the big deal?

Well,

It is a big deal for us and I'd appreciate it if we wouldn't do that now.

You know what I mean?

So to kind of,

Sometimes you have to hold the boundary a couple times,

Not just once because people often will try and then they give up.

Oh,

I said something,

But you have to hold steady.

You know,

You have to hold steady because you're going to get pushed back,

You know?

And when you say our family doesn't swear at the dinner,

We don't like swearing at the dinner table.

You know,

That's the non-shaming way to say,

Hey,

Uncle Joe,

Stop swearing.

That's wrong,

You know,

Because you're going to get a defensive response.

It's just like what the way our family doesn't really like having,

You know,

Swearing at the dinner table or whatever.

Or we like to say grace before we start a meal.

What the differences are,

You know what I mean?

And it's a non-shaming way when you take responsibility for your behavior.

And I would appreciate it if we could do it this way while we're at the table,

If that's okay.

You know what I mean?

You've got to kind of stay in the conversation,

Not just say it once and back down.

Yeah,

Family dynamics are hard.

Like,

You know,

What if that uncle or whatever person still continues?

But I think what's important is that you stood up and your children heard what you said.

I think that's important too,

That you advocated for something.

And that is not the value,

Even though you can't control other people.

And if there are small children involved,

I mean,

Maybe separate the small children from the adults table.

It's fine to say,

You know,

I think we're going to take a break.

I think we're going to take a break.

Because again,

It's not about attacking the other person and it's not about judging them.

It's about taking ownership for your peace,

Your side,

And what you have agency and control over.

I think we're going to take a break.

That doesn't,

That's not inflammatory.

You know,

Like,

Would you stop it?

That's so inappropriate.

What's wrong with you?

You're going to get a defensive response,

You know,

And you And the room may divide into two now.

It's going to be a big conflict.

Yeah,

That's exactly right.

I remember when my oldest son was younger,

He had a bunch of allergies,

Allergic to milk and allergic to egg and dairy and all this stuff.

And my mom just had such a hard,

Like she grew up in a time where peanut allergy,

Allergies just weren't a thing.

And,

You know,

I said,

Mom,

You know,

It's really important if we're going to feed my son that there's no dairy products in the,

Oh,

Honey,

There's just a little butter,

Little butter is not going to hurt anybody.

You know,

I said,

Mom,

You know,

Little butter is actually dairy.

And if you're going to put butter,

I just can't give that to my son.

I just wanted you to know that,

You know what I mean?

She just didn't get it.

She didn't understand.

And like,

What's your problem?

You parents are so fussy.

It was kind of like that,

You know,

Oh,

Please.

But a little butter never hurt anybody kind of thing.

I understand that.

And,

You know,

We're not going to be eating the broccoli because it does have dairy and my son's allergic to it.

So I just wanted to let you know,

Boom,

You know what I mean?

You do have to kind of show up because you're going to get pushback.

This is the way we did it.

What's your problem?

Because when we do things differently from our parents,

They can take it as threatening.

They can take it as,

Oh,

My way was wrong.

Like I used to change diapers.

What's wrong with the way I did it?

So you're not there to compare and say my way's better.

You're saying this is the way we're choosing to do it.

You know,

And that's a less inflammatory,

You know,

Because some parents take advantage of like,

I'm going to let her know how wrong it was the way she did it.

And I'm going to show her the right way that I'm doing it.

That's not what this is about or it shouldn't be about.

If you have your residual feelings still,

You could lead with that energy.

And you want to be clear of it,

Right?

And separate what happened to you then versus what you have control over now.

Because when we get intense,

It's usually a sign that our unresolved history is showing up.

So I really like people to separate then and now,

Then and now.

What's happening now?

What do you have control over now?

What is coming up from then?

And what could you separate from or differentiate?

You know,

We all regress when we go home to our family of origin.

Oh,

Isn't that true?

Yes.

Oh,

I use it.

Is it driving me crazy?

And I used to say this in my head.

Maybe I even said it out loud a couple of times.

I'm like,

Do you know that I'm a doctor who went to Harvard?

It is like,

Because I get treated like Frankie.

Oh,

Frankie,

You're so dramatic.

Oh,

Frankie,

You always blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

You know what I mean?

We get reduced to our old roles.

And I'm like,

Damn,

Like I'm in the hospital saving lives.

And you're talking to me like I'm a 10-year-old.

You know what I mean?

And I don't like saying,

Hey,

Do you know I'm a physician at Harvard?

And sometimes I would just say it in my head and just be like,

Oh,

This is so hard.

But our family knows us in the ways that they know us.

And there is this regression and this pull back to those earlier times,

Which is very difficult.

So we have to have that realistic expectation.

I think many of us,

Even if we have done trauma work or personal development work,

It doesn't matter.

You are thrown right into the cauldron of your childhood.

And it provokes so much stuff.

You revert to your younger self even.

And like you said,

They reduce you to your small role.

And we have done episodes on the podcast about updating our relationship with our parents because they never updated.

We never updated.

It's hard to do.

But if you think about it,

Childhood is such a tiny little segment of a human life.

With our parents,

We are more on an adult-adult level than like a child-parent relationship.

The adulthood is much longer.

So it's like we get stuck and it hurts everyone.

We don't get to know them for who they were and they don't get to know us as adults.

And it's such a shame.

It's so sad,

Really.

Well,

What I would say this,

I want to tweak what you said a little bit.

Before you update your parents about who you are now,

You need to update your child self about who you are now.

So the updating needs to happen,

From my perspective,

Internally first.

Because you don't have to slip back into those regressive roles if your younger self knows that you're in charge now.

OK,

So I think that work has to happen internally first.

I understand what it was like.

I'm aware of how difficult this is for you,

Younger self.

I'm going to show up differently now.

See if you can trust me to be different with my mom and dad now.

So I think there's an internal updating that needs to happen first.

And then you can do the external updating with your parents.

And recently,

This happened.

My mom was kind of,

I don't remember what the discussion was,

But I showed up differently with her.

And she said,

Oh,

Frankie,

You're so mature.

And it was like,

I was like,

I'm not showing up the way I used to.

And I'm not participating in that regression anymore.

So when we show up differently,

The people around us can see that.

You know,

And she's like,

You're so mature.

I just love the way you handle things.

Like,

Well,

Thanks,

Mom.

You know what I mean?

So she saw the difference instead of she showed up her old way and then I showed up my old way.

So it doesn't happen.

We don't have to slip into those regressive roles,

But we have to update our younger parts because they're the ones that tend to show up.

Oh,

Boy.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I think it can be done,

But we have to be aware.

Yeah,

Because,

Yeah,

When you go to your family home,

You're in the same environment.

You go to your bedroom and even the furniture is the same.

And right.

It's like very,

I don't have that.

Right.

Like,

I can never relate to people who have that because of the earthquake.

I don't have a family home.

I don't have anything like a childhood home or anything like that.

So I've seen it in movies.

Always wonder what that's like,

But it must be very provoking.

Because all of your unresolved stuff comes up when you go back into the environment.

Yeah.

You haven't done your healing.

Holidays are a great opportunity to know what other work you have left to do.

Right.

It's a really good sign.

Like,

Wow,

I've done a lot of work.

I'm not carrying a lot or,

Oh,

OK,

This is still there.

I have more work to do.

Like,

It really is a good barometer or an indicator around where you are in your life.

I'm in this phase of my life right now where I'm speaking up to people who have been in authority and who have been in relationships where they've had power over me,

And I'm really showing up differently.

And I could feel that energy difference in myself and the people around me are seeing the way I'm showing up differently.

So there's a lot that's within our control around us showing up differently,

Not expecting the people around us to change.

Oh,

Boy.

Yes.

They never change.

They always say the rude comment.

The person who always said the rude comment is going to say something rude.

The person who is always doing their own thing at the table they're going to.

We can only be responsible for ourselves,

Right?

And like you said,

Have an exit plan.

I mean,

Can you leave the party too?

Or it would be too demonstrative.

And they will say,

Oh,

She's a diva or.

It depends on the way that you leave.

Screaming is one way to leave.

Actually saying,

I think it's time for me to go.

Thank you so much for having me.

Our family is going to leave now.

Same thing with people feel obligated to stay at their parents home.

Like you can stay at a hotel.

Yeah.

You know,

We did that.

My family did that several years ago.

And I have a youngest son who's on the spectrum.

It's so overwhelmed so easily with all the chaos.

And we've several years ago decided it's better for our family to stay in a hotel.

And they were threatened by that in the beginning.

But now that's the new normal.

And we have a place to go.

You know,

We have an exit strategy and we have a place to go if we need to.

So,

Yeah.

You don't have to stay in your childhood bedroom when you go home for the holidays.

So true.

I think it's like what I'm hearing over and over again.

We don't want to be stuck and perpetuate the same old narratives and the stories and the triggers and the old ways of doing things.

You know,

We can update those and really challenge them at first.

You know,

If I'm doing it this way,

Do I have to?

You know,

Look out for the well-being of your family,

Of your children first,

Right?

Put children first.

Is it safe for them?

If your drunken uncle is coming to the table and you know what's going to happen always,

Well,

Maybe don't go to that dinner this year and expect different results,

Right?

Maybe make different plans.

I feel like we are afraid to make those changes.

Well,

Again,

If you haven't released what you're carrying around it,

Then it's much harder to do that.

You just can't make new plans if you're still carrying anger and resentment and hurt.

That's the thing.

You do your work,

Do your work,

And then you can show up differently because you're less affected.

And then it's more about them and less about you.

This is the thing.

We try to fix our unresolved history with them first.

And I say,

No,

Release what you're carrying,

Then show up differently.

And then you can have a different experience with them.

But you can't expect to work it all through with them when you're still carrying a lot of anger and resentment.

And I do want to say it is important to show up differently with them.

That's very healing for you to have a corrective experience.

So I don't say avoid them at all costs.

I say do work and show up differently because it's very empowering for you to say,

Wow,

I can be at my family home and I don't have to re-experience that anymore.

So I do encourage people to interact with these people that you may have carried anger,

Hurt,

Or trauma around.

But when you show up differently,

You can be really empowered.

And there's a lot of healing that's done when you show up differently.

Yeah,

That's such a brilliant point,

Frank.

I really love that point,

To feel empowered in that same setting with the same people and have that corrective experience.

I think so many people avoid that,

Right?

Because they think that's a solution.

But avoidance is not helpful.

It's best to face it in a different way and have that empowerment feeling.

This is brilliant.

I love that.

How about grief?

Grief and loss can be a big part of holidays,

Right?

Let's say a few words about that.

Yeah,

Well,

So that's inevitable.

That's inevitable.

It's fascinating.

I don't know that there's ever been a study done about this,

But a lot of people die around the holidays,

If you've noticed.

It's very common for people to die.

It's kind of like some people will wait till the,

You know,

Die after the holidays.

Some people stick around,

Their souls stick around for one last event.

But during holidays,

We're remembering people who we've lost.

So it's common for,

Oh,

This is the first holiday without our grandma.

This is the first.

When families get together,

Loss is inevitable because it brings up losses in the family of all kinds.

You know,

When you get,

When your families get together,

There's the loss of the hoped for holiday.

Like,

Gosh,

When I was a kid,

I really wanted so-and-so.

So the loss of what wasn't comes up as well as the loss of people.

There's a grieving of a childhood that wasn't what you wanted it to be,

Right?

So loss is inevitable.

You know,

I never had the mother I always wanted.

I never had the childhood I always wanted.

So when your families get together,

Yes,

Loss comes up too.

And I say,

Feel sad.

It's okay to feel sad.

Don't suppress it.

Let those feelings move through.

They're real.

They're significant.

They have a right.

They've shown up for a reason.

Now,

Do you have to bring it up at the dinner table?

Not necessarily.

But do you feel it as you're driving to your parents' house?

Yeah.

Let yourself feel the grief.

It's got to be moved through.

I think that's really important to not,

Oh,

We're supposed to be happy.

So we're not allowed to have sad feelings or unresolved feelings.

No,

Let yourself feel it.

The more you feel it,

You're less likely to act it out.

Yeah,

Agreed.

I think people associate holidays with being happy.

But at every holiday gathering,

Like you said,

Grief and loss show up.

Yes.

It might be grandma's last holiday,

Perhaps,

With the family.

For me,

It was when I gather with people,

It was never,

I didn't have this growing up.

I don't have a mother.

This person has a mother.

And her mother helped her cook and serve the table.

There's so many things that come up.

And sometimes people can be even,

They may ask you a question that can provoke a feeling in you.

And so I feel like having realistic expectations and not going with this,

With this,

Oh,

We're going to have a great time.

We're going to have a happy time.

No,

We're just going to get together.

Lower that bar.

Don't put this happy slap on this thing,

Because it's never going to be that happy.

Still go back to the Disney World trip that we took when our family,

When our kids were younger.

My husband kept saying this,

Like everywhere you turn over the loudspeaker,

Disney World,

The happiest place on earth.

As you hear it on the speaker over and over again,

Right?

It's like,

There's no room for sadness here.

Right.

And,

You know,

I say set a table at the dinner,

Set a dinner place for your grandmother,

Who's no longer there.

Set places at the table,

Put a candle on a plate in the center of the table to represent everybody who's not there,

Like bring them in,

Bring these people in.

So you're like,

It's okay to include this in our family celebration.

It makes it more,

You know,

People are like,

Oh,

If I mention grandpa,

You know,

Grandma's going to get,

If I mentioned grandpa dying,

Grandma's going to get sad.

Well,

Like grandma may love the fact that grandpa's mentioned at the holiday table,

Because,

You know,

Damn well,

She's thinking about him.

If her husband passed,

Do you know what I mean?

I know I experienced that exact thing.

And someone reprimanded me for bringing it up at the table and saying,

Don't we wish he was here?

And I was reprimanded for bringing up a sad topic.

But it was like,

But this is the reality.

Like,

You know,

I know she's feeling I'm feeling it's in the air,

You know?

100%.

Yeah.

And we have to be sensitive towards others too,

Because everybody has something that they are dealing with on an emotional level.

Well,

And people tend to suppress it,

You know,

Because the expectation is happy.

Yeah.

So you're not allowed to have any,

You know,

What we do a lot,

You know,

Look like,

You know,

The people sometimes at Thanksgiving will say,

What are you thankful for?

You know,

And we do like,

What is your high point?

What's your low point?

What was the best part of your day?

What was the most difficult part of your day?

Like,

We always include both when we kind of go around the table to like,

Say,

It's okay to have both,

Right?

To set that precedent,

Instead of tell us something you're thankful for only,

Because we don't want to hear anything else.

But even with the bad thing that happened to you,

You could still be grateful of something that happened as a result of that experience,

Right?

It doesn't exclude that.

Now,

I agree,

We have to develop this tolerance around difficult emotions as a society,

As a culture and embrace it,

Especially at holiday gatherings,

Because many people struggle,

Stress is at overwhelming rates,

People are isolated.

And this is the only time we get together and we just want to pretend to be happy,

But internally,

Everybody's like dealing with something.

So maybe let's welcome it all so we can be of genuine support to one another.

Instead of like faking it and pretending that we're happy and putting happy fronts and talk about only positive things.

Exactly.

Right?

So let's conclude this.

Let's bring this home.

What are your expectations from this holiday season,

Personally?

Well,

It's interesting,

You know,

It's a,

I'm having,

So we're having a very different holiday season this year.

We really are.

And I'm aware of that.

Like,

This is the first holiday season I won't be with my extended family.

Oh,

Wow.

So,

You know,

Our family is kind of,

Everybody's in different spaces.

Usually we get together at Christmas or we get together at Thanksgiving,

Right?

This year,

Because of a number of different things,

It's not happening.

Partly for us,

Because we're moving to Los Angeles from Boston.

So we've got to,

You know,

So what we're doing this year is my immediate nuclear family is really focusing on our last Thanksgiving here in Boston,

Our last Christmas here in Boston.

This is not an extended family holiday season.

It's different,

Right?

And I'm very aware of that.

Not bad,

But different.

You know,

My mom may come out to Los Angeles to visit me,

Which is great.

So I might see my mother,

But I'm aware.

We've gone back to the Chicagoland area for 20 years.

You know what I mean?

This is the first time.

So it's a different,

We're setting something new this year.

Very aware of that.

So I have different expectations.

There's a part of me that's sad about not seeing everybody because I've really enjoyed that.

There's a part of me that's looking forward to having this really kind of private,

Intimate holiday season,

Which we've never had before.

So I'm just holding an awareness of difference this year than all the years in the past.

For me with kids,

They really hold on to tradition.

It's very important.

So I'm checking in with my kids.

Hey,

We're doing it differently this year.

What are the things that are important for you that we make sure we include?

Because I don't want to just have it be different and then,

Wait a minute,

Where's the so-and-so and where's the so-and-so?

Do you know what I mean?

So I'm checking in with both to see what's important to them as we do it differently this year.

Wow,

Yes,

That's a wonderful point.

And again,

There is that loss element too,

Right?

You're going to grieve what will never be.

Maybe this is the new way it's going to be.

Your family,

This is.

.

.

At least for this year,

You know what I mean?

This year,

Yeah,

We don't know what the future is going to bring.

But this year,

This is what it is.

And there's a loss and there's potentially something special in this and to hold both.

Yeah,

Is there anything else you want to add to conclude this topic?

I just think to have everybody be aware that it's loaded for everyone.

Like these holidays are loaded for everyone.

And the more you can stay connected to yourself and your truth,

The more likely you're going to be able to create something positive for you and those around you,

Even if it includes feelings of sadness and loss.

Well,

Thank you so much.

I really appreciated this conversation.

It's timely.

And I wish you good luck in your celebration and togetherness and your move and what's coming for you in the future.

Very exciting.

So thank you so much for coming back.

It's so nice to see your smile and you again.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's always a pleasure.

Good luck.

This was great.

Thank you.