Nothing, Everything And Boundless Natural Freedom

Andreas Müller has the magic of putting the unspeakable into words.

From his website - "Andreas points to the natural reality which is no-thing. Nothing can be reached, because nothing is lost. Nothing has to be discovered, because nothing is hidden."

We spoke about:
- Andreas' spiritual seeking
- Awakening
- The difference between spirituality and this message
- The illusion of 'illusion'
- 'Healing' and somatic work
- The nature of liberation
- Love
- Complete and boundless freedom

Transcript

Andrea Smöller,

Thank you for joining me today.

I appreciate it.

Yeah,

Thanks very much.

I'm happy to do so.

Are you from Germany,

Andreas?

Is that where you're based?

Yes,

I'm based in Germany and I am from Germany.

Yes.

Okay,

So I've recently rebranded to what is now called podcast-wise at least,

The Dancing Paradox.

And I've been seeking and searching for all sorts of knowledge and wisdom and all this stuff probably since 2012.

And probably maybe four or five years ago,

I come across Tony Parsons and people like that.

Very,

What you may call,

I don't like getting lost in the terminology,

But non-dualism and invader and that type of stuff.

Do you consider yourself a non-dualist?

Is that how you would label yourself if you had to in terms of speech?

Well,

That's a difficult question because of course I wouldn't label myself at all.

But I think it just turned out that non-duality is the word to describe this in a way.

So yeah,

Why not?

I don't like the term and I don't like to name myself at all,

But all right,

Let's do it.

Let's start,

Andreas,

With the concept that there is no seeker that is seeking.

So I've been looking myself for the last eight,

Nine,

Ten years.

What is it that is doing that seeming seeking?

Well,

That's the interesting thing.

In the end,

It's just what apparently happens.

So one could say the seeker is this sense,

This experience to be a separate person.

But what's being said here is that that is not real.

That's what's being said here.

So in the end,

There is no real source behind that or a real reason.

It's just what apparently happens for no reason.

This illusion that I am someone and that seeking comes out of that.

So would it be just an energy field?

Well,

In the end,

This would be another description of something that's not there.

But I sometimes use that word.

It just feels as if I am someone.

That's what I would call an energy,

A seeking energy,

A sense to exist,

A sense of existence.

It's just a story.

But to point out that it's not,

That being me is not intellectual or emotional.

Somehow apparently deeper.

That's why I would call it energetic or maybe some others do as well.

So I read on your website,

If I could quote you,

Everything is naturally and beautifully itself.

By being so,

Everything is absolutely realised already.

However,

There is neither someone becoming aware of that,

Nor is there someone arriving in that.

There is no liberation.

There is no bondage.

There are not many.

There are not two.

There is not even one.

Yes.

So that to the mind and to the person,

That is ungraspable.

I've tried to do that for years.

I can't grasp that concept.

Could you expand a little bit?

Well,

In the end,

It's not providing a concept.

Those words are as ungraspable as this moment is,

So to speak.

It's the same impossibility to grasp it.

And those words just apparently report from what seems to be happening.

So,

Yes,

That's what those sentences are quite directly saying.

You can't get it how it is.

You can't get reality.

You can't get anything in the end.

And of course,

This comes through in those sentences as well.

But that's the other thing that's just being said,

That how it is,

How it really,

Really is in general,

Can't be known.

You know the story of Andreas.

Was there a seekingness from you?

Oh,

Yes,

Definitely.

Of course.

For most of my life,

I experienced myself to be someone,

Apparently.

Oh,

Yeah,

And I was seeking,

Definitely.

Right.

So do you think that the seeking is a precursor?

Or does it just happen?

Is it a process?

No,

Not really.

I wouldn't say so.

I would say the moment there is this experience of I am,

There is seeking.

But it's not something that has to be.

It's not a path.

It's in the end inevitable when there is someone.

But it's not leading up.

The seeking doesn't lead to liberation.

Liberation is just the collapse of the seeker.

And theoretically,

That could happen anytime.

It's not that you need to seek long enough before or intensely enough.

Now,

It can just collapse anytime,

Theoretically.

Because a lot of the people who,

Thankfully there's quite a lot on YouTube and everything,

They've all at some point been on that search.

I don't,

I'm not aware of anybody who it's just happened to.

So although it's a phrase that I really,

Really like is that it's nothing apparently happening.

It would suggest based on the people that I've been listening to,

Including yourself,

That there is always that seeking-ness before there is some,

Whether it's an instant state of expansion or whether there's a gradual subtle process,

Something is there beforehand.

But once again,

Is that just my mind trying to figure this all,

Figure all this stuff out?

Well,

That's what I mean.

On the one hand,

Whenever you have someone telling this story,

The person will tell a seeker story beforehand.

Because every me is a seeker.

And I would almost say that every me,

Well,

It's a story,

I don't know,

But everyone is kind of seeking more or less equally intense.

It doesn't matter if it's in their career or in their family or if it's spiritually.

I think what you mean or what you point out is that most of them have been spiritual seekers.

Yes.

But again,

I would say that's just what apparently happens.

There is no real reason or need for that.

That's something that the person would like to see,

That it has to be like that.

In the end,

To validate its own seeking.

Because the funny thing is,

If you take this story,

The person turns it into the exact opposite of what this message is saying.

Because the person would say,

Ha,

See,

You were all spiritually seeking,

So it's absolutely good that I'm seeking as well.

While this message is saying,

No,

There is no seeking,

It's not needed,

There isn't anyone.

And I think it's difficult for people to grasp that there is no value here.

Yes.

Oh yeah,

I understand,

Of course.

Because the person's hope is that their seeking has value.

Otherwise it would be too weird.

To seek for nothing is too weird for the person.

That can't be.

But in the end,

That's the surprise.

That is the surprise.

That the seeking is part of the dream,

That the person is the dream,

And that it's really for nothing.

It can just collapse for no reason at all.

That's the freedom.

And you mentioned freedom there.

Would you consider that the natural state?

If you want so,

Yes.

Everything already is that freedom.

So it's not a natural state that I am in exclusively.

No,

Everything is that.

Every stone,

Every cloud,

Every car,

Every human body,

Every thought,

Every feeling already is that free.

So it's not that I'm in an especially natural state or something.

No,

It's just everything is that.

That would be quite difficult for,

So let's suppose somebody is going through a difficult time,

Or it's labelled as a difficult time,

The suffering to the individual is quite intense.

What would you suggest at that point to these people?

Well,

The thing is you can't really suggest anything.

Of course,

If they would be asking for this message,

The only thing that would come out probably is,

Hey,

There is no one.

The thing is that this is not really an answer to their suffering.

It's not like what the person expects.

The person expects something like,

What do you suggest to me that I can escape from the suffering or that I can make the suffering less?

And this is not happening here really.

So you can't suggest anything to them.

Right.

It's because,

As an example,

On the theatre screen,

We have a lot of what's going on in Eastern Europe and everything.

And a lot of people communicate with,

It may come across that I lack a sense of care sometimes.

And it isn't that I don't care in a human sense,

But it's like,

Well,

I think it's probably a bigger picture.

And I sometimes struggle,

I'm not asking you to give me an answer here,

But I sometimes struggle to lay up that this is just life going on.

Well,

That's the thing.

It's both.

On the one hand,

It is like that.

And on the one hand,

It totally isn't caring.

Hone-ness,

Nature isn't really caring.

It just does what it does,

Apparently.

On the other hand,

This message is not an answer.

That's how the person would see it.

Like,

Don't suffer,

It's not real.

Like,

Exactly.

That's on the one hand what the person is looking for,

An answer.

But this message just doesn't do that.

And the other thing is what's being said,

Suffering is wholeness too,

In a very unexpected and surprising way.

Again,

Not as an answer to make it good or to make it acceptable or bearable,

But in a very unexpected way,

What happens is whole and complete,

And this includes apparent suffering.

Yeah,

So based on that,

I'm assuming that you would say that there is nothing to fix,

There is nothing to change,

There is nobody to change anything.

Exactly,

That's the thing.

I would prefer that.

There is no one there to change anything.

And when I mean nothing needs to be fixed or changed,

It only refers to the person's idea of finding fulfilment.

So the person thinks,

This needs to be fixed for me to be more fulfilled,

This needs to change for me to become more happy.

And that's the dream.

Fixing things and change happens all the time,

Automatically,

By itself,

But not because it's needed for someone's fulfilment.

In that sense,

Nothing needs to be fixed.

When you say the word dream there,

The word illusion is thrown around particularly in the spiritual communities.

Would you consider that the same thing,

Or are you separating the two there?

Oh no,

I just sometimes say this and sometimes… Yeah,

Yeah.

So there is no illusion.

Thinking there is illusion is an illusion.

Exactly,

Yes.

I know this word,

It already has this spiritual touch,

I know.

That's what it actually means in this context.

It's not there.

There is no me,

And in that sense there is also no me illusion or something.

It's not there.

But there is a you and I communicating out of this Zoom call.

Yes.

What's the question about that?

So you and I are having a conversation,

Although… I suppose the question I'm asking is,

Is this… I'm trying not to fall into religious and spiritual dogma somewhat,

But is this a communication to move energy somewhere?

No.

It's just it.

Exactly,

Yes.

That is,

To have this conversation is this ungraspable and unknowable natural reality.

It's almost too simple.

Yes.

Oh yeah,

For the person it is too simple,

Because there is nothing to do.

The person is looking for something that's easy to be done,

But there's nothing to be done.

And it simply is like that.

And that sort of goes against… it's sort of a very opposite to mainstream,

Where everything is getting more and more complex and we have to figure everything out.

The materialist type of paradigm where… this would completely go against everything that modern day thought would hold us true.

Yes,

Absolutely.

Well,

It goes against the personal experience.

And it seems at least that most people seem to experience themselves as someone,

So that's why it seems to go against the common sense or the common experience.

Totally.

And you are right,

Actually.

I think there are two movements,

And that's basically where the person moves between.

On the one hand,

Everything seems to become more complex and more diverse and more smaller,

Smaller,

Smaller parts and more and more things to know.

On the other hand,

There is a strong need for simple truths,

Like populism and stuff.

Those would be the two sides.

Either there is a very simple reality,

But that is still graspable,

Simple truths,

Or you have this immensely complex reality.

Both are parts of the person.

And therefore both dreaming.

Of course,

Yes.

Please.

Yeah,

I mean both are ways to see the world from someone,

Either to have it immensely complex or to have it very simple.

But it's coming from someone living in a world or in a real world.

So the dream,

Is it being dreamed?

Same with illusion.

The interesting thing is that it's not really there,

Even.

I'm trying to go,

Well,

What's the point then?

Is there any,

You know,

The mind's trying to grasp onto that linear A to B to C causality.

It's like,

Well,

There's got to be some reason for this.

No point.

No.

Right.

That makes,

That to me,

As a person,

Makes me feel a bit nihilistic.

Like there's no point in all this complete waste of time.

Have you felt that as a person,

Maybe prior to?

Yes,

Of course.

Also,

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

I mean,

The thing is that when there is the sense of a person,

There's just a subtle feeling of something's wrong.

So the person needs those ideas to make itself feel better.

It has meaning.

It has a point.

Also,

What we talked before,

The seeking has to happen.

It's for something.

It's important.

It's meaningful.

So my search,

My coming to conclusions,

My being on a path for the person,

Gives the person a good feeling about itself because its presence,

Its simple presence,

Is unfulfilled.

So when you take away those stories,

What's left is this sense of something's wrong then.

And then something comes up like nihilism or things that don't really feel well.

Yeah,

Yeah.

The sense of fulfilment,

Is that impossible as a person,

As a sense of me?

Yes,

Exactly.

Yes.

So would you consider yourself labels again,

But would you consider yourself fulfilled at this point,

Seen as it's dropped away?

Well,

That's hard to say because again,

There is nothing left which experiences itself as whatever,

But also not as fulfilled.

But yeah,

Of course,

That there is unfulfillment.

This illusion dropped.

It's not there anymore.

So in terms of day-to-day existence,

How does that show up for somebody like yourself?

That's hard to say,

But all I can say is that there's just this seeking dynamic,

This inner,

I don't know what the person lives in,

An inner dialogue,

Or yeah,

This constant seeking that the person lives in.

Also,

It may be quite subtle,

It's just not there.

And it just turns out that day-to-day life,

So to speak,

Is whole and complete already.

There's just no need for something deeper,

For something more,

For something,

Yeah,

For a deeper satisfaction.

That need just drops.

And on the one hand,

Life finally goes on as it always did,

Ordinary and not special.

On the other hand,

There's no one seeking.

So as an example,

I am a business owner.

That doesn't fall away because of this.

Oh,

It doesn't have to,

At least.

No one knows.

There would be no need for it to fall away.

Yeah.

It could just go on.

Absolutely,

Of course.

Do you think,

Andreas,

That as you were seeking for a period of time and then whatever happened happened,

Is it possible that more,

And I'm going to get lost in language again,

But more advanced,

I don't even know,

Consciousness again,

If you like,

Expanded energy can happen?

You mean the dropping of the me?

I think so.

Okay,

Good.

This has nothing to do with expanded consciousness.

And I would say,

Oh yeah,

Why not?

Of course.

It would just be what apparently happens,

But there would be no obstacle,

Actually.

It could be what apparently happens,

Or not.

There are no obstacles.

There's no problem,

Really.

For the me to drop,

Or for this apparent illusion to drop,

Could just happen,

Apparently.

Right.

Okay.

Do you think,

Andreas,

There's a place for psychedelics and stuff,

For people who are very deep into their mind to unlock some of the mental patterns and stuff,

Or do you think that it's like a new agey type?

I think this message has nothing to do with that.

No.

I mean,

I have a bit of experience in psychedelics from a long time ago,

And of course it can be interesting and kind of mind-blowing,

And it may bring another perspective on how real reality is,

But as I would say,

It's still just part of a story.

It's still just experiences that no one has.

Yeah,

Okay.

And you've written a book,

I believe,

About Meister Eckhart.

Yes.

Why Meister Eckhart?

Well,

For no real reason.

It just came up out of my story.

He's also a German mystic,

And he's a bit popular here in Germany.

So at first it was a German book,

The English version is a translation from the German book.

And I thought it was just interesting,

Some of his sentences,

Or some parts of what he said at that age and all of that.

It was just nice to have him a bit as a.

.

.

To say something to.

I haven't gone too deeply in his stuff.

I'm not a huge fan of him or something.

But some things I thought were quite impressive.

Yeah,

I think he seemed to.

.

.

I'm very similar,

Actually.

I haven't gone into great depths of his work,

But what I have read seems to have the Christian lineage,

If you like.

He seems to have gone a little bit.

.

.

The self had fallen away in terms of Christian lineage,

If you like.

Exactly.

And that's also something that I liked,

Because usually you get it from other traditions,

From Christians.

Exactly.

Just stuff like that.

Andreas,

You talk a lot about love.

I've heard you speak about it in conversations and everything.

What is that?

Love?

Well,

Again,

It's not an experience.

But opposed to the person's experience of this not being enough,

When the person drops,

It's an utter surprise that how it is is kind of.

.

.

Those are all those strong words,

But it's kind of perfect or naturally in harmony.

That is what I think of love.

And I know there is no one there experiencing love.

It's not a special state,

But it's kind of undeniable.

Let's put it like this,

When there is no one.

It's almost undeniable that this is just fine.

It's just fine as it is.

For no one and all that stuff.

But yes,

I think that's what I mean with love.

Everything is free to be itself,

And that's love at the same time.

Oh,

OK.

OK.

Yeah,

Because I think obviously love has got a bit of a Hollywood feel to it now,

Where everyone is like.

.

.

Yeah,

Of course.

Yeah,

The thing is,

I mean,

What the person loves or would love is an experience of love.

So what the person is trying to do to somehow make that,

Create that,

Fake that,

Talk itself into it.

And I think that's what you mean with the Hollywood thing,

Also in spirituality.

They have to constantly confirm to themselves that we are love,

We are divine love,

Everything is love.

And in a way,

This message doesn't need that,

Or what happens?

Sitting in front of a screen and having this conversation doesn't constantly need to know that it's love,

Or tell itself,

Oh,

We are actually love,

It's love,

Actually.

No,

It's just naturally fine being this.

It's so natural.

So you wrote as well in your,

I think it was Unlocked,

I think you wrote it,

But Unlocked,

Liberation is the plain and simple death of the illusion to be someone.

Until that,

The whole energy is based on need and survival to keep and hold your life together.

You can't get much more straight to the point than that.

Yes,

It sounds a bit drastic.

But yes,

That's what life is about.

Do something to find something for me.

I don't even mean it in a bad way.

That's just what apparently happens.

And the need for survival,

Is that not merely a natural occurrence of the world?

Oh,

Yes,

Of course.

One could say the body wants to survive.

That's just programmed.

So when there is danger,

The body will act.

The thing is,

The person wants to survive because it still needs to find fulfillment.

The body doesn't say,

I need to survive because I still want to travel to the moon or visit to a safari or something.

Or I need to survive because I haven't lived fully yet.

And the body just wants to survive in the end for no reason.

It's just programmed behavior.

But this dream that I,

As an I,

Need to survive in order to go on experiencing and maybe find fulfillment while I'm experiencing,

That's a total dream.

And that need is illusory.

That's basically what the person suffers from,

This idea.

The body doesn't really suffer with the idea of death.

The body doesn't care,

Basically.

It just does what it does.

The person cares about its me existence and about its path.

It's always connected to this idea of I'm not fulfilled yet and I still am on a mission.

I still have something to do in my life,

With my life.

And you can never get there,

Can you?

You never end up there.

That's the thing.

You never end up there.

Exactly.

Totally.

It's just hoping until the last minute.

Yeah.

And then you're on your deathbed going,

Ah,

I never did this,

I never did that,

And I regret this and I regret that.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And the regret actually comes,

On top of this regret comes the illusion,

Maybe,

If I would have done this,

I would be more fulfilled now.

I would be a more fulfilled me now,

For example.

Exactly.

The only way to fulfilment,

I think I spoke,

I said this earlier,

The only way to fulfilment is the dissolution of me.

Yes,

One could say so,

But it's not that this brings about fulfilment,

It's just a turning out that fulfilment was always there and is there and is natural and ordinary.

Yes.

And the me is clouding it via its mental capacity,

Would that be correct?

Yeah,

Kind of.

Well,

It's just experiencing itself to be separate from wholeness.

So it's not just the mental stuff that keeps it hidden.

The personal experience apparently is the opposition to wholeness.

Not really,

Of course,

But within its experience it feels like that.

And you rip that every experience of presence is suffering.

So to speak,

Yes.

Because the experience of presence is the me and apparently there is suffering in that.

Because people like,

As an example Eckhart Tolle,

For example,

The power of now,

The present moment,

Bringing everything back to the attention to the now and all this,

You're sort of suggesting the complete opposite to what Eckhart Tolle is suggesting there.

Well,

If that's what he suggests,

Then yes,

Absolutely.

Oh yeah.

OK,

So can we expand on that just a little bit?

So every experience,

Because there is an experiencer,

That is what is creating the suffering,

The experiencer.

Exactly.

That just seems to go together.

The moment there is some kind of experience,

Or experiencer,

There is a subtle sense of unfulfillment.

So are you,

Speaking to me now,

Experiencing this conversation?

Are you having that subtle sense there?

No,

Of course not.

Oh no,

No.

This is what I would call liberation,

When this sense turned out to be illusory and is not there anymore.

OK.

So I guess the question I'm asking,

Because the me hasn't fallen away here.

So the question that I'm asking is,

I think,

There is nothing,

Or maybe it's a statement,

There is nothing I can do for the me to drop away,

Because by doing that,

There is the me there.

That's the paradox.

So to speak,

Yes.

That you are there in the first place is the dream.

There is no one there,

Over there as well.

And yes,

This instant notion,

But I want the me to drop,

That exactly is the me,

So to speak,

On the one hand.

On the other hand,

It's just what apparently happens,

And it doesn't have any autonomous existence.

Satinalism.

So many spiritual traditions,

Particularly Buddhism,

I suggest you just watch or simply be aware,

As a way out of self identification with the mind,

With the thinking.

You sort of separate yourself,

Thinker and thought.

Do you think that that sort of gets people in a spiral,

And more problems upon more problems by going down the so-called spiritual tradition route?

I wouldn't say so.

I would say it's just the continuation of seeking.

I think it's not worse or better.

I think there is no better or worse seeking.

It's just going on doing something,

Finding a good position to go through life,

Thinking to be on a path.

I don't think it's better or worse to do that.

But it's just the person trying to do its life.

And you mentioned earlier that everybody is seeking that fulfilment,

Everyone,

Regardless of what they're doing.

So it could be people who fall into hedonism or through their work life or anything,

Whatever it is.

They're all seeking the same thing.

Am I saying that correctly?

Yes,

One could say so.

Yes.

My impression is whenever there is a person,

There is the impression that what I'm doing serves a higher purpose.

And for most people they don't,

They're not conscious,

But I think there is this subtle assumption underlying,

Saying it'll somehow pay off at the end.

Something will still happen.

Or as I said,

Whatever I do is good for something bigger or greater,

Even if it's being polite for the neighbours or for all those small things,

Baking cake for the kids or baking cakes for the neighbours,

Who is it,

Or whatever.

It's still underlying that it needs to be like that,

That I need to do that in order for something bigger,

Either for society or for my… When I'm on deathbed,

That I can look back and everything,

That's what I mean.

For me,

This would all be the same dynamic.

I am,

And I need to do something in order for something else.

And there's a lot of cultural conditioning around that as well,

Particularly in the East,

You've got the idea of karma and everything,

Do good to have good done to you.

Exactly.

And yours,

You'll find it in all traditions,

Actually,

That you need to live in the right way.

There is a right or wrong way to be.

And of course,

In the mainstream,

It's more the cultural ideas,

But you also get it in the alternative scenes,

Whatever that might be.

People who say,

Let's leave society,

Let's live an adventurous life or just travel or we don't want to work or anti-cabita,

Whatever,

You find it everywhere.

Whenever there is a sense of a person,

There is this assumption that there is a right way to live for something bigger.

Do you consume books and things now and content or do you just like completely…?

Well,

No,

No,

I do read books.

I think not immensely,

But I do read books on newspapers,

But in the end,

There is no consumption of that.

Right,

OK.

The person would consume it,

Trying to get something from it.

That's what I do.

Either entertainment,

Distraction or information or knowledge or whatever.

It would try to fill this hole by whatever it does.

That's another way to describe seeking,

Just to somehow try to fill this need,

This sense of lack.

Essentially,

There's no difference between me reading a book in order to get knowledge to fulfill the perceived hole that's missing to the person who is taking heroin on the street.

Just a different degree.

Whether the seeking dynamic itself might be similar,

That's what I just described,

And I do something in order to make myself feel good,

Make this me feel good.

And I consciously do this in order to get something back.

I mean,

There's nothing wrong with that.

There's no one there anyway who could do it differently,

But it's just what seems to be happening.

So you know,

Like healing work,

They do a lot of somatic bodywork and things like that.

Do you think they have any value?

Well,

Not really,

But this is not an attempt to devalue them.

Yeah,

Sure.

They don't have any value regarding the me becoming a fulfilled me.

That's all.

But healing work happens and trauma and somatic stuff happens and it's just fine.

But the illusion is just be that those things can create a fulfilled me.

That's all.

In that sense,

They have no value.

Yeah,

This message is quite difficult for people to grasp,

Isn't it?

There's not many people who I don't think would actually come across it,

To be honest.

I think they'd be seeking quite a while before it crosses their path.

That's possible,

Yeah.

I mean,

We will see nowadays with all this media stuff.

But yeah,

I mean,

Actually for the seeker,

It's utterly unattractive.

Yeah,

Because it essentially drops.

Everything that they've done becomes meaningless.

Exactly.

And it's totally not what the seeker wants.

The seeker,

Of course,

The person,

Of course,

Wants to be a happy me,

Wants to become a happy enlightened me.

Of course,

There's nothing wrong with that.

There's absolutely no connection between what the person wants and this message.

Not that it matters,

But yeah.

So you mentioned the word enlightenment there.

That is a big spiritual thing,

Isn't it?

Everyone's attaining enlightenment.

If you look at the word itself,

It means light in the mind.

So based on this message again,

For context,

That's an actual impossibility,

No?

Well,

Yes.

Yeah.

That there is an enlightened person,

That there is a liberated person,

That there is a fulfilled me.

It just doesn't exist.

So when we speak of enlightenment,

That must therefore be a paradox in itself,

Because the me wouldn't,

The person,

The me wouldn't be there.

Exactly.

Yes.

But then the word doesn't make sense really anymore,

Because then there is no one there realising or recognising or making a difference between enlightenment and not being enlightened or liberated and not being liberated.

But of course,

Yeah.

There's a lot of traditions based on that drive towards enlightenment,

Drop everything that's going on in the world and just go straight towards what you perceive to be enlightenment.

But then again,

If it's as you say,

Nothing apparently happening and no one's doing anything anyway,

There's sort of no reason to even have a conversation,

As though at that point,

Everything just falls away.

Do you not find it difficult to actually communicate?

Yes.

Of course.

Yeah.

I mean,

There just isn't even a real communication or the communication.

That's the thing.

Us having this conversation is the wholeness that this conversation points to at the same time.

But it doesn't add anything.

It's not that we need to talk about this to create something new,

To create the actual wholeness or to create an experienceable difference.

No,

Of course not.

In that sense,

This is not a real communication or I'm not really communicating a message to you.

Of course not.

Yeah,

I'm not trying to make sense of anything,

To be honest.

I'm just trying to let things just happen.

Because you're probably the first person that I've spoken to who's been able to put the wordless into something at least tangible for my mind to grab onto in some way.

So I thank you for that.

Is there any.

.

.

Your website's called Timeless Wonder,

Is that correct?

Timeless Wonder.

Oh,

The Timeless Wonder.

Can I ask why you chose that name?

Well,

It just sounded good.

Is that it?

The thing is,

The name.

Yeah,

I think,

Well,

I liked it.

The Timeless Wonder.

And this is The Timeless Wonder.

But in the story,

Of course,

The name of the website is something of the first things you have to do.

Yes.

So I had absolutely no clue where it leads to.

But I liked it.

I think it's still like The Timeless Wonder.

And how many books has Andreas Müller written?

Oh,

I think it's quite well,

Most of them I haven't really written because it's just extracts from the talks.

And there are also some self written essays in there,

Who it's quite a few meanwhile,

Because they have some books in German and some in English,

I think five or six in English are there now.

But some are quotes,

Some are longer texts,

Some are just conversations from the talks.

So they're all a bit different.

Okay,

And do you do retreats and things like that?

Yes.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Okay,

People can find that on your website?

Exactly.

All my events on the website.

I just slowly start again.

I was travelling quite a lot before COVID.

And then of course,

It got less for the last two years.

And I think now it starts again.

So let's,

Before we wrap up,

Let's just talk,

We're not going to get into the political nonsense and all that,

Around the COVID thing,

You know,

But millions of people,

Billions of people across the world were really thrown,

Psychologically thrown by that event.

Was there like a mass attention?

Was something happening there?

Are you with me?

Like a collective,

Not shift,

But collective movement of attention?

And is there,

Once again,

I'm looking at purposes and meanings and all this,

But was there a reason for that?

Are you with me?

Not,

I'm not really with you.

Is it just happening?

Or is there anything to it?

Oh no,

Of course not.

There's nothing to it.

It's just what apparently happens.

Also what it did for apparently those people,

All of it was just what apparently happens.

The situation,

How people reacted to it,

How it was so-called,

That's just what apparently happened.

But there's nothing really deeper to it.

Because the mind is always trying to figure this stuff out.

And I look for,

As an example,

I look at the Hindu Yuga cycles and it's like you have it,

Ages of enlightenment,

And then you have the Kali ages and all this,

And I'm going,

No,

We're in the Kali,

And my mind's going,

We're in the Kali ages,

This is what's happening.

And it's like,

Well,

Even if that is true,

I can't do anything about it anyway.

Yeah.

It's just a continuum.

When I find it funny,

I know there are,

I mean,

Whenever,

I mean,

It happens anytime,

Not only with crisis like that,

Or with situations like that,

But then it's happening more and more.

I know,

You know,

Many people are saying,

Ah,

Maybe a new age starts,

Maybe now we will all become ecological,

More aware,

And we will go into the more important things now,

We notice that the outside doesn't care that much.

And it's amazing because I read an article in Germany and they were printing articles from 1917,

1918,

After the Spanish flu,

And there were newspaper articles which said exactly the same.

Yeah,

Honestly,

Now maybe we are moving into an era of peace,

You know,

Before Second World War,

10 years before Second World War and stuff,

And they were exactly the same things written and people believing that now consciousness awakens and people focus on what's important and stuff.

Yeah,

So we'll see.

Yeah,

We'll see.

Moving into the age of Aquarius,

This is what I've been hearing.

Okay,

You go ahead with that.

Yeah,

I'm just really enjoyed talking to you.

It's been quite difficult to,

Because the way that the message itself is silence seems to be the best way to just,

I don't know,

Whatever it is,

But I've really enjoyed talking to you,

You've got a good quality to be able to lay this up in a way that's slightly understandable for people.

Thank you,

Yeah,

Thanks for the invitation,

I enjoyed it very much.

Okay,

Thank you.

All the best.

Bye bye.

Thank you.

Bye.