Learn Buddhism: Becoming A Buddhist Monk

Becoming a Buddhist monastic (monk or nun) is often a desire by Westerners new to the religion instead of staying a layperson. But should you? What does it entail? And, can you have a complete Buddhist experience as a layperson? This episode's guest is Sanathavihari Bhikkhu is a Mexican American Theravada Buddhist monk from Sarathchandra Buddhist Center in N. Hollywood California and shares his insights and history going from Buddhist layperson to monk.

Transcript

Welcome.

I'm Alan Pedo.

And I'm joined today by Sanathivihari Bhikkhu.

He is a Westerner who became a monastic.

So I figured he'd be great for the topic today.

And the topic today is going to be,

Do you have to become a monk or nun to be an actual Buddhist and is that the best way forward?

So basically,

When we're talking about monastics and laypersons inside this video today.

So welcome,

Bonsai.

Hello,

Alan.

Right.

So I think we kind of like start off with probably a little bit about your,

Your history and how you got into Buddhism and also became a monastic.

I know it's a great story,

But you were former,

You know,

Military,

You're in the air force as well.

So,

I mean,

You have a nice rich history here,

But you know,

You eventually,

You know,

Found Buddhism and then eventually decided to become a monastic.

So if you wouldn't mind,

If you could just kind of explain kind of like how you got into it and then how you kind of decided,

You know what,

I want to take this extra step from being not just a lay person,

But now I want to be ordained.

I want to become a monastic and kind of what was going through your mind at that time.

Yeah.

So yeah,

I was in the air force and for a couple of years,

Air force reserve and did a couple of deployments too,

And all of that.

And you know,

My journey with Buddhism begins back in high school when I picked up a book from the Dalai Lama,

You know,

I really,

It really resonated with me and I was like,

Yeah,

I'm a Buddhist,

But I was in mature high school,

You know,

High school is so I was like,

Yeah,

That's a good idea.

I'll come back to it later.

And I did,

You know,

Every couple of years I've come back to it.

I read more Buddhist books.

I went to a couple of temples,

But unfortunately,

You know,

Due to language barriers,

I wasn't really able to progress in,

In,

In those temples.

And then it wasn't until,

You know,

Until like in my late twenties that I,

You know,

Really got back into it.

I read a lot more,

I studied a lot more.

I went to many different Buddhist temples,

Both Theravada and Mahayana,

And listening to a lot of mostly like online talks.

And then after doing that for about two,

Almost three years,

I decided to like take refuge formally,

Which is interesting because my teachers here at the Sri Lanka and Theravada temple were like,

Oh,

If you think you're a Buddhist,

Then you're a Buddhist,

Like,

You know,

That's it.

And I was like,

No,

I want something to like,

I want something formal.

They're like,

There isn't anything like ceremony.

You just have to take refuge and say you want to practice five precepts.

You can do that at home,

But if you like,

You know,

We can give them to you here,

You know,

Like that.

And I was like,

Okay,

I just,

I need the,

I need the thing to make it real,

To keep me honest.

And so then I did that.

And then after a year of practicing that,

You know,

I also went again,

I got deployed again,

I came back,

I went in a couple of meditation retreats.

And then there was a couple of things that happened.

One is that I listened to a talk from one of my teachers named Bhante Poonerjee.

And he basically said,

The only thing that there is to do in this life is practice Dharma,

You know?

So then like that really got me like,

Well,

You know,

I was thinking,

Well,

How can I practice Dharma like full time,

All the time,

Or most convenient way,

You know,

Or stuff like that.

And then then I also,

I had a experience during a meditation retreat,

Which made it very obvious to me,

You know,

What I wanted to do.

So with that understanding,

Intellectual understanding,

And then combining it with this kind of like experience,

Meditative experience,

They both came together.

And I looked at my life,

And I was like,

I don't have any kids,

You know,

Like,

I'm free right now,

Like,

My family's doing well,

Like,

I don't have any other responsibilities.

Like,

This is the time I can do it,

I'm in a position where if I wanted to do it,

I can do it.

And then I asked the monks,

You know,

Can I ordain and they laugh,

They're like,

Oh,

You know,

Nice story.

And they did that like two or three times until they noticed that I was being serious.

And then they told me,

Okay,

We're going to watch you for a couple months.

And then we'll see.

And so then after a couple months,

I think it was almost eight months,

And they told me,

You can come and stay at the temple as a layperson,

And we'll watch you.

So then I stood at the temple for a couple months as a layperson,

Practicing eight precepts.

And then I got my lower ordination,

Which is the Samanera ordination in Theravada,

They call like the Papaja.

So it's basically like 10 precepts.

But you know,

You kind of practice the 227 without officially taking them,

You know,

Like a trial period.

And then from there,

It took,

It took me another three years to get the full ordination just because I was waiting for my inactive reserve component,

Military thing to get out.

So even after you finish,

Technically,

You still have another two years,

Right?

So I had to finish that because one of the rules that you have,

One of the questions you get asked when you become a higher ordained monk is,

Are you under the service of the king,

Which nowadays would mean like the president or the orders of the commander,

Right of the country.

So I couldn't say yet,

I can't say no to that question.

So I couldn't get the higher ordination.

I think that's great.

And you actually hit on a few topics on there as well,

Too,

Which I really enjoyed.

So you went to a few different temples,

And there was that language barrier,

Right.

And so I think that's in our Western world,

We have a lot of,

You know,

Buddhist temples,

I mean,

You could literally and,

You know,

Los Angeles is a great example,

You might find every single tradition of Buddhism there.

But it may not be always once that you can actually,

I would not say engage in but like,

Really,

You know,

Get delve into because maybe there could be a language barrier,

Like you're saying not all the monastics might actually speak English,

Because they're traditionally attending to the cultural needs and the from the country of,

You know,

What that temple is actually supporting.

So I think that's a challenge for a lot of Westerners.

But then you also hit on one where the monastics were kind of laughing at you like,

Oh,

What do you are you serious about this?

And I think that's something that needs to be talked about as well,

Because you probably have,

And this is really one reason I want to do this video and talk with you.

And just bring up this topic,

You have a lot of Westerners,

The first thing they think about probably don't know anything about Buddhism yet,

But I want to become a monastic right away.

And there's this romanticized vision of like,

What being a monastic is,

And how you become a monastic and,

And everything else,

Where,

You know,

They're kind of shocked by reality sometime.

So going to a temple,

They may be disillusioned,

Well,

Maybe I can't,

You know,

Understand what's going on here,

Maybe don't even believe,

You know,

Like,

Why would you want to become a monastic,

You're living in this wonderful Western civilization,

Regard everything,

Why would you want to give that all up,

Right?

You're like,

Hey,

This is really what I want to do.

And they saw that,

That faith and determination in you are like,

Okay,

If you want to do this,

Let's go on to the next steps.

And I think that was also important where you're not just ordained,

You know,

The next day,

It's like,

Well,

We're gonna,

We're gonna watch you,

We should probably do lower treats here with us.

And then even after you're ordained,

We're gonna watch you some more,

You know,

So we really want to see that you can really essentially have this monastic lifestyle,

A homeless lifestyle and be able to follow all the presets,

Which I think is also something that Westerners don't really see,

Like,

We have maybe as Westerners,

Five precepts,

Maybe,

You know,

Maybe up to eight or 10,

Depending on if we take a retreat,

But you have how many precepts do you have to follow?

227.

There you go.

And,

You know,

I know and care about us not almost a lot of nuns there,

But like,

How many do you have a bunch more precepts?

Right?

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

So I think,

You know,

These aren't kind of like,

You know,

Rules to punish you,

But it's also you can as monastic,

Whether that's a monk or nun,

Progress on that path towards,

You know,

Enlightenment,

Nirvana,

Right?

I mean,

That's all there to help us.

But you know,

As laypersons,

We're going to be very challenged to actually follow all those like hundreds of presets,

Right?

So when you first became ordained,

And you went through this entire period,

What was most shocking to you?

And like,

What is almost like the daily life of a monk?

What's your daily life,

You know?

Well,

You know,

Here,

Like within like the Mahayana and the Theravada tradition,

You can see some differences,

Especially when it comes to like,

More like East Asian Mahayana,

Everything's very communal,

Like everyone meditates together,

Like in Zen places,

Chan,

You know,

Everyone does everything together,

Works together,

Everything together.

Theravada tradition is true.

But in within the Theravada tradition,

There's a lot more alone time,

Where you're left alone for hours on your own to like,

You came here to meditate,

You go do that,

Right?

You came here to study,

You go do that,

Like,

The place needs to be clean.

If you see something dirty or messy,

You need to clean it on your own.

So there's like a lot of self initiative,

You know,

In my training where I felt like really like,

You know,

Like,

What's going on here?

Like,

Where's the where are the monks at?

And then I asked other people,

Other monastics are trained in the Theravada tradition within the Sri Lankan tradition too.

And they're like,

Yeah,

Like I had a friend who went to Sri Lanka,

And he was left in his little hut and his little kuti for hours throughout the day without seeing any other monks.

So there's there is this kind of more of a traditional like,

Shwarmonic,

You know,

Aesthetic kind of feel to it that you would see in traditional like Indian practices where you're just kind of like,

The lonely meditator on your own,

You know,

We do chanting in the morning together,

We do meditation in the morning,

But the majority of the day,

You'll be on your own.

So that was kind of a shock.

I was expecting,

You know,

Like,

Us being together more,

I was thinking like,

Oh,

Now I'm going to be friends with the monks like that,

You know,

The chief monks gonna be my buddy,

He's not going to be your buddy,

He's your teacher,

You know,

Right.

And all the other monks,

There are senior to you.

So they're gonna be they're gonna be like these authority or mentor figures,

You know,

So they'll be friendly with you.

But there's like some,

There's some,

You know,

Barriers that are out of respect that are not going to be crossed.

So don't come in thinking that like,

Oh,

Me and my friend,

Me and my monk friends are going to be just hanging out all day and chit chatting.

Like that's not going to happen.

You know,

I don't care if you're in the Mahayana or Theravada,

It's not going to happen.

Right.

And so I think that's a good point,

Too.

So there's,

There's elements there of what's the right word here,

Self motivation,

You know,

For what you're doing self discipline.

And the discipline is also a major part of being monastic,

Right?

I mean,

You're disciplining,

Not just your mind,

But kind of everything else,

Like you're trying to be very holistic in what you're doing,

Because we're trying to get towards,

You know,

Nirvana,

Right.

And I liked how you gave the example of,

You know,

The two major branches of Buddhism.

So like,

I'll say Mahayana.

And so like,

You know,

I'm not a monastic for my temple,

But so Chan,

You know,

And pure lens,

Chinese Buddhism,

You know,

Temple,

And you can see it's very structured there as well,

Communal living,

But very structured as well.

And monastics are doing everything from arranging classes to retreats to website online.

I mean,

It's like a variety of different things.

So they are busy,

Busy,

Busy all the time.

And so do you ever have to do that?

Like interact with slave persons,

Arrange anything or kind of like,

Do you have to do it kind of like any outreach or anything like that or assisting people?

Or can you just like,

Hey,

I'm just going to stay in my room the entire time?

Or do you have responsibilities essentially where I'm going?

So every monk's responsible for like the upkeep of the temple.

So even the chief monk,

You'll see them like sweeping and doing,

You know,

Like,

Regular things,

I took it upon myself to pick the only my own the things that I wanted to do.

So for example,

You know,

Because I like Zen and in the Zen tradition,

The chief monk is the one who cleans the toilets.

So when I got here,

I said,

I want to clean the toilets,

You know,

That's I took it upon myself now.

So now no one in the since I've been here,

No one else cleans the toilets.

That's just my thing.

They never asked me to do it.

I just took it upon myself.

And so everyone has like different duties.

Some people sleep outside and people clean inside like,

So we have like shared responsibility.

And also if you see anything out of order,

You have to take the initiative,

You know,

And clean it up.

You shouldn't be like,

Well,

That's not my job,

Or I didn't do it.

You know,

Like,

You have to,

Whatever needs to be done,

You need to do it.

But there's basically no janitorial service coming in,

You know,

It's you guys.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

You have to do your own laundry,

Right?

You have to do all these things.

And sometimes unexpected things happen at the temple.

And like,

You have to kind of be like,

Like a handyman,

You have to do a lot of handyman work,

Especially within the Thai tradition,

Like Thai monks work hard.

They actually like build temples,

You know,

Like,

They're doing a lot of the hard lifting,

So heavy lifting.

So you know,

If you go into thinking about going into the Thai tradition,

You're basically going to do be like a laborer,

Like part of the year,

Stuff like that.

But yeah,

So I do like I assist,

Facilitate meditations,

Most of the stuffs online,

Because I do a lot of outreach to like the Latin Latino community,

And stuff like that.

But you know,

I would say that you could,

If you wanted to,

You could spend about like 80% of the day alone,

If you really wanted to.

So I liked how you also mentioned Thai.

So like,

You know,

In our culture,

It's very culturally appropriate to become ordained,

You know,

At least temporarily,

Right.

And I've often seen a lot of Westerners,

You know,

Comment on it,

Like,

Well,

Can I just go to Thailand and become a monk,

You know,

Almost like it's a rite of passage for something that's not a rite of passage in our culture,

Right.

And so it's like,

Well,

If I'm not a if I was never a monk,

Then am I really a Buddhist,

Right.

And so I'm kind of diving into two,

You know,

Topics right here.

So do you think,

You know,

This is your personal opinion,

Because you're also the ordained in the Sri Lankan tradition was Theravada.

But like,

So then we got a,

You know,

The Thai tradition of Theravada,

Right,

And there's different ones there.

But basically,

You know,

You're going for maybe a month,

Three months,

Maybe a couple of years,

Maybe,

Or maybe your lifetime,

But there's not a requirement to essentially stay there long term,

You know,

In at least at least in a Thai tradition.

And so should a Westerner and that's primarily I'm talking about,

Should he like,

Well,

I need to buy a ticket to,

You know,

Thailand to become ordained.

And,

You know,

I think,

You know,

Where I'm going with this topic is,

Is it okay to be a layperson?

And obviously,

My opinion is yes,

You know,

Absolutely.

If you can become a monastic,

I think that's fantastic.

You know,

I definitely admire what you've done,

Because that's not something you see a lot of Westerners,

You know,

Actually do,

You know,

But being a layperson,

There's a lot to that,

You know,

I don't think a lot of people actually see that at least,

You know,

With my temple stuff,

But there's a lot that's actually going on that you can actually do.

So what do you think about essentially,

You know,

Temporary ordination,

You know,

Like if they went to Thailand and stuff like that?

And also,

This can be like almost a three part question for you.

And then also as a layperson,

Because,

You know,

We also have the,

You know,

Short term retreats,

Whether that's maybe a day,

Weekend,

A week,

You know,

Or even longer,

Depending on the tradition,

And also the temple.

So kind of like,

What's your thoughts on that?

Basically,

What should a layperson do?

So,

Yes,

You can completely follow the entire Buddhist path as a layperson,

You don't have to become a monk.

What the monk's life does is it creates,

You know,

Easier or better conditions,

It facilitates the process,

Right?

That's what it does,

Really.

And also,

You know,

As a layperson,

Laypersons have also their part to play,

You know,

And in helping the sangha.

So without laypeople,

Monks cannot exist to begin with,

Right?

Right.

They play a very important role,

You know,

They shouldn't see themselves a second to monks,

Because without them,

They can't be monks.

So they're essential.

They're not a second position,

They're essential.

Without the laypeople,

There is no community at all.

It's impossible,

Especially for,

You know,

Within the Theravada tradition,

Where like,

We don't cook,

We don't buy food,

We don't do anything.

So like,

We would just like,

Starve to death,

You know,

If there was no laypeople.

So yes,

So the Buddha,

You know,

In the suttas in the early taxi praises laypeople,

You know,

For what they do,

How they support,

How they practice,

How they do all these,

Like regular things,

The Buddha praises them for taking care of their mom,

For taking care of their children,

Right?

The Buddha praises them for helping others.

So Buddhism is a lot more,

Westerners,

We think Buddhism is either like philosophizing,

You know,

Or meditating.

So in order to be Buddhist,

You have to,

You know,

Like,

Be a philosopher,

And you have to be like a meditator.

But that's not true.

That's a very,

You know,

Very narrow view of Buddhism.

They asked the Buddha,

You know,

At one time,

Like,

What is it?

What does the Buddha teach?

And the Buddha said,

Well,

To avoid bad to do good and to purify the mind.

So to avoid bad is the sila,

The precepts,

Right?

To do good is to practice charity,

To do good actions,

To share,

To be part of your community.

And then the last one is to purify the mind.

But you can also purify the mind as a layperson,

You know,

There's no obligation to become a monk.

So I think,

You know,

As Western Buddhists,

Once we start actually engaging with the text,

And we start interacting with a traditional,

Like,

You know,

Asian Buddhist community,

You'll see like how rich the lay life is.

Because as a Western Buddhist as a layperson,

Maybe you just go to the temple once a week,

Once a month,

You come back home.

But that's not the experience of a layperson in Asia.

Like,

They're a layperson 24 hours,

You know,

Like,

That experience of being a Buddhist is not like when you go to the temple only like they're walking down the streets and like the environment is all Buddhist.

So it's very different.

So once you get that kind of wider layperson perspective,

You'll see how rich the lay life is.

And I think you really need to experience that for yourself.

If not,

You're always going to feel like,

Well,

As a layperson,

I'm missing out on Buddhism.

And the only way I can get the whole thing is if I become a monk.

Right.

Yeah,

I absolutely agree with that,

Too.

I mean,

It's,

You,

You also have organizations or groups,

You know,

Which are Buddhists,

Maybe,

You know,

Zen is of course,

Very popular inside America,

Where sometimes I would say,

Almost got like a stripped down version of Buddhism,

Which may be a little bit cleaned up,

Compared to if you go to,

I guess you mentioned,

Like an Asian temple,

You know,

Asian Buddhist temple,

It's rich,

There's lots of,

You know,

Ceremonies and practices,

People know each other.

I still remember when I went for my triple gem ceremony,

Exchanging phone numbers and everything right there,

You're building this community just like right away.

And that's,

That's what it's about,

You know,

If I could be closer,

It'd be great,

You know,

But it's one of those things where we are in a basically in a culture that's not predominantly Buddhist,

Obviously.

But when you're inside that culture,

You're right,

You know,

That Asian countries,

It's,

It's all around you.

And even like how you interact with people and what you can say,

Like,

As you know,

We've talked a lot about Chinese Buddhism,

And so you know,

They'll go metaphor to other people,

Like said,

Are actually saying the Buddha's name,

You know,

To each other,

But to us,

That'd be very unusual to say,

So is all that kind of interaction that we don't have here.

And so it kind of mentioned,

Like,

You know,

The retreats,

Right,

You know,

So now maybe every temple does it to all the same degree.

But I think even the Buddha,

You know,

Had that,

You know,

Back in his time,

Where you need to give laypersons,

You know,

Kind of like a little taste of this monastic life.

And I think for an I like to speak on it,

Gives you one,

The taste of monastic life,

Like I just said,

But it also kind of refreshes your,

Your faith and your knowledge and,

And everything else.

I mean,

You're engaged,

You know,

If you can,

You know,

Stay at the temple,

Or you just kind of stay longer.

That's nourishing,

If you will,

When it comes to the Buddhist religion.

So do you have that,

Like,

At your temple?

Like,

Could I know,

Like,

You stayed overnight?

Was that sort of like retreat or just like,

Hey,

We want you to kind of like,

You know,

Stay a couple of times to get get used to the environment?

So it was,

It was basically I was like,

Kind of like an altar boy position,

You know,

Where,

Where you come and you stay and you have to wear all white and you practice eight precepts,

And you just kind of like help the monks around and they kind of tell you kind of like how it's going to be when you become a monk.

But what I noticed when I did that is that since I was at the temple all the time,

I got to experience the authentic,

Like,

You know,

In Asia kind of experience here,

Because the only people who come here are Asian Buddhists,

Like,

You know,

Only on Fridays when we have like the open meditation to the community,

You see Westerners come.

So I would see how they would talk to me how like they were like interested in the smallest details of my life,

They wanted to exchange numbers too.

And,

You know,

They would see my mom,

They're like,

Oh,

How's your mom?

Is she doing well?

How are your brothers and sisters?

How are they dealing with all of this,

You know,

And it was very sincere.

And they're like,

Oh,

If you need any help,

Let me know.

So this is very like communal kind of interaction Buddhism,

And there's where I really got to see the fruits of the lay life,

Right,

The selflessness,

Thinking about others,

The compassion,

You know,

Wanting others to be free from their suffering,

And how generous they are giving Donna.

So then,

You know,

I actually even as I when I first became a monk,

Even to this day,

I was like,

Wow,

If I knew about this,

Maybe I wouldn't have became a monk if I had grown up in that culture,

Because that's what I was looking for.

I was looking for the Buddhist lifestyle,

You know,

And I think you only get that if you really engage with traditional,

You know,

Buddhist communities.

And Buddhism is not like something that you do as a hobby or as a club,

Or online only,

Like when you do that,

I can see why you would want to become a monk because you want to immerse yourself.

I get it.

Yeah.

But there's,

You can immerse yourself as a lay person too,

You know,

It might be a little bit difficult depending where you're at in the world.

But you know,

Try to find that try to first get that immersive experience of like,

How it is to live with other Buddhist people.

And that might be enough for you,

You might get what you what you want.

Once you start doing that kind of like,

You know,

Like participating deeply and living the Dharma in every word and every action and every gesture that you do.

I absolutely agree with that.

It's,

If you want to become a monastic,

Become engaged,

You know,

With your temple and the religion and learn about it.

And like you did,

Hey,

This is what I'm interested in.

So you can you can have that path.

But see what it's all about.

It may take,

Hey,

A couple years,

That's okay.

Because if you want to become a monastic,

You know,

What do you want to do for the rest of your life or just for the day or for the year just to say you're fantastic,

Right?

And so it's,

I absolutely agree with that one.

And,

You know,

Becoming a monastic,

You know,

Kind of a you mentioned a little earlier on,

That's the most,

What's the right word here,

Maybe the best path to actually achieving enlightenment,

Especially in Theravada,

Right?

Mahayana,

We have,

You know,

The bodhisattva path,

And it's,

You know,

A little bit different views on the past,

I mean,

All the same goal,

But just kind of different,

Different past there.

But when I bring that up,

I remember there was this Japanese monk,

And he's like,

You would be a one fisted fighter or two fisted fighter.

And so like a one fisted fighter in Buddhism,

For the analogy,

Was a lay person and two fisted fighter is a monastic.

So if you're,

You know,

You want to go into this battle against,

You know,

Greed,

Anger,

Delusion,

You know,

One fist or two fists,

You know,

To kind of go into that.

And so,

Yeah,

Absolutely be kind of monastic is,

It's,

Yeah,

Fantastic what you did,

But it's,

I think everyone has to take a kind of like a step back and actually be engaged with that particular temple.

And I think you have some people,

You know,

Jumping around as well,

You know,

Maybe going from one temple to another temple,

Maybe discouraged here.

And,

You know,

We,

During,

We're still in a pandemic,

It hasn't ended really.

But like,

You know,

Last year,

We put together that guide regarding,

You know,

Kind of living through the pandemic,

You know,

Through the COVID-19 pandemic.

And we have a lot of this online,

Like we're doing right now with Zoom,

Right.

And as you mentioned,

You know,

That's fine.

But actually having that in person,

Getting engaged with that community is so much more different.

And I know that's really hard for a lot of people,

They don't have anything around them,

You know,

It's maybe hundreds of miles or another country.

And so there's actually a temple or something.

So this could be it,

It can be books.

Have you,

Because I know you actually do outreach with a lot of Spanish speaking people around the world,

Where there's maybe not even a temple nearby.

So for for them,

What would you recommend?

So like,

Even just becoming a layperson could be even challenging,

But if they want to become a monastic as well,

What would those challenges be?

What would be your recommendation?

So for example,

Maybe somebody,

You know,

In Mexico is like,

Yeah,

I want to become a monastic.

But where I live,

There's nothing nearby,

There's no monastics.

What would they do?

You know,

I know,

Yes,

That's a loaded question,

Right?

Actually,

I come across it all the time,

You know,

Almost like every other month.

And you know,

What I what I tell them is like,

Well,

You you don't,

You've just read about Buddhism,

You've seen it on TV,

You know,

And stuff like that.

And I respect that you want to become a monkey,

You want to take your practice deeper,

But you don't know what it is yet,

You know,

And you want it to become a monk,

You're overshooting,

You know,

Like it's going,

You're going too far.

You don't even know how it is to be a layperson,

Because you're alone,

You know,

So like wanting to be a monk is way too much.

You don't really know what Buddhism is,

Because you have to live Buddhism.

Right?

So I tell them,

Like,

I usually tell them,

Like,

Let's wait a year,

Let's talk for a year,

And I'll teach you what I know.

And I'll connect you with other Buddhists.

Because one of my like,

My biggest thing that I do in my online groups,

Through Kasa Devavana,

Is I try to connect people,

You know,

So like,

You're in Mexico,

I try to connect you with other Buddhist people in Mexico.

And I even send them to other,

You know,

Meditation teachers,

Lay teachers,

I send them to like,

Other schools like Mahayana,

Zen,

Vajrayana,

Like,

Go,

Go meet these people,

Go talk to them,

Go see how it is,

Right.

So I try to help them,

You know,

Experience the Dharma and meet other Buddhist people.

And then,

You know,

Unfortunately,

No one has made it past the year,

You know,

That I've said,

Because after that,

Either one or two things happen,

Like,

One that they begin to understand the richness of the lay life.

And they're like,

Oh,

Wow,

Like,

This is good enough for me.

Like,

This is what I wanted,

Right?

Or another one,

They realize the extent to how how difficult it is to be a live a month as a monk.

And they're like,

Okay,

I thought it was gonna be like watching the you know,

Those kung fu movies.

And right now I thought I was gonna live like that.

And then they're like,

Okay,

You know,

I thought I was gonna live like that.

It's not like that.

Because as we get to talking,

I shared with them,

You know,

My daily experiences as a monk.

And they started being like,

How did but I thought it was gonna be like this.

I'm like,

Yeah,

This ain't Hollywood.

This is real life.

You know,

This is Buddhism on the ground.

Yeah,

It's not gonna be like your fantasies about some paradise in some other world.

That's not happening.

You know,

The real life is that,

You know,

Monks have their own idiosyncrasies,

You're gonna get annoyed,

They're gonna bother you,

They're gonna forget things,

Lay people are going to come to the temple,

Things are going to happen,

You know,

Regular life,

Nothing's gonna change,

Except like you don't have hair,

You were like robes,

You're going to be the same person.

But with 227 rules,

And in a place that's foreign to you in a foreign environment,

Can you deal with that with that level of isolation,

Physical isolation,

And to a certain extent in the beginning social isolation,

Too,

Is you may not be able to communicate,

It's not your culture.

So are you can you do that?

And then usually people start backing down,

You know,

I'm not a good promoter of monasticism.

Well,

I think also,

You know,

I've heard you like you're able to,

You know,

Do the chanting,

Do this,

You know,

Speaking,

You know,

You know,

Like Sri Lanka,

Sri Lanka or Pali are usually Pali,

Pali,

Mostly Pali.

Yeah.

And so that's something that I think people don't realize either,

Like,

You have to kind of be able to,

If you're gonna become a monastic,

Is usually going to be in one of these particular,

You know,

Traditions,

You know,

That's culturally specific,

You know,

So English is great,

You know,

But can you also maybe speak in our language or Pali or Sanskrit or something like that?

And I even know kind of like,

You know,

Far as the,

You know,

Temple and organization,

You know,

That,

You know,

That I follow,

They go to quote unquote Buddhist college,

You need to go for go for years.

And so like,

Are you okay going for years without a country and essentially living like a monastic before even a monastic,

You know,

Essentially,

In that way.

So it's a commitment.

And I know I'm not ready for that commitment,

Maybe,

Maybe a couple of years,

We'll see.

But you know,

For right now,

I'm lucky as a lay person,

I realize what I'm attached to and stuff like that,

Maybe some things I don't know.

But it's,

I know,

That's,

That would be very challenging for me,

You know,

Even though Yeah,

You know,

The romanticized vision of that looks great.

There's a lot more to that.

So I think that's really telling to like,

You know,

You deal with people,

You help them and you for about a year,

Like,

Yeah,

Okay,

You know,

Layperson life,

I think I'll stay there.

And that's okay.

You know,

It's okay to be a layperson.

And like you mentioned,

We've had throughout Buddhist history,

We wouldn't be here right now,

Without laypersons and monastics.

So like,

Even the,

The,

When we look at the,

You know,

Type,

He'd like all the Buddhist scriptures and canons and stuff like that,

Usually governments and,

You know,

Funded projects by wealthy people,

We've had to this day,

All the books that you get quote unquote,

For free,

Have been paid by somebody,

You know,

Just come out of thin air,

The buildings and everything else,

You know,

So sometimes we have in for Westerners,

Like,

Well,

Shouldn't this all be free,

You know,

Right.

But the monastics have to live and may have to live somewhere may have to have this and that,

Right.

So there's all this foundational support.

Because I,

You know,

I read it one time somewhere that with laypersons,

There's a lot dealing with morality or conduct on that.

So they are going to be the wisdom category as far as the eightfold path,

Right,

They're going to be learning the sutras and stuff like that.

They're going to be doing that,

You know,

That that discipline,

That meditative concentration,

But it's near that daily life,

You kind of get you touched on earlier on this,

The morality,

Conduct,

Following the Buddhist teachings,

And just in your everyday life,

Is something that you can do.

So you can be,

Quote,

Unquote,

Like a mini monk,

It's out being ordained in everyday life by following the Buddha's eightfold path,

You know,

You're just taking that extra step,

Where it's the most direct path,

You know,

That way,

Compared to a lay person,

But we still can practice Buddhism.

So it's okay to be a lay person.

Yeah,

You know,

Alan,

In the Pali sutras,

There's an occasion where they asked the Buddha about enlightened beings in his Sangha and the community.

And he says,

You know,

There's like thousands of enlightened lay people within the Sangha,

You know,

And he goes through all the different levels of enlightenment,

Of awakening all the way down.

And then he says,

Even those who are not enlightened,

Who are practicing five precepts,

They're going to be reborn in this heaven because they've been so much good.

So the Buddha praises the practice of the lay life,

How,

You know,

They can reach so many different attainments.

And,

You know,

How the monks life wouldn't be possible without them,

And he praises their virtuous qualities,

And all these kinds of things.

So once we start actually,

Like,

Engaging with the act,

You know,

With the actual traditions,

You start seeing like,

Wow,

The lay life is really something beautiful,

And it's something rich.

And it's important.

And it's essential.

It's not a second position.

And all that support is,

You know,

Generating merits,

Like you mentioned,

Like,

You know,

It's maybe in this life,

You know,

I'm never going to be a monastic,

I'll never reach,

You know,

Enlightenment.

But we're saying the sage stays basically,

We're generating these,

You know,

Karmic seeds,

You know,

If you will,

That's continuing on.

So that is,

I think,

You know,

The something that,

You know,

Westerners look at like,

I need to become a monastic,

I need to get this done,

Hopefully,

In the next five years,

You know,

I need to be enlightened,

You know,

Realize their body and be done with it,

Right?

We're very,

You know,

Goal success,

You know,

Or to sell looking at,

You know,

Laypersons like that older doing,

That's it,

They don't want to achieve this,

I think we all want to achieve it.

But it's,

It's a very challenging thing.

You know,

We had the,

You know,

Original Buddhism,

Source Buddhism,

We had,

You know,

The Buddha right there,

We saw,

You know,

Great success,

He was right there teaching everybody.

We've had that,

As you mentioned,

You know,

Like,

Throughout the,

You know,

The years and centuries going on,

We've had enlightened people.

But it's,

It's a very challenging thing,

We have so much,

You know,

Greeting or in this delusion or ignorance kind of going on.

It's just very challenging for us.

So whatever,

Maybe what's a good analogy is as much as we can clean that mirror or that window,

Or you just get rid of that dirt,

As much as we can do,

It's really helpful,

Whether you're a monastic or lay person,

Just engaging.

So,

You know,

I definitely want to thank you for for being here today and talking with me and talking to everybody else,

You know,

Sharing your experiences.

Do you have anything that you'd like to say to anybody,

Just,

You know,

Brand new to Buddhism?

And maybe that was your first thing to like,

I want to be,

I want to be a monastic,

Right?

I think we kind of mentioned,

We kind of mentioned a couple of times to like,

It's okay to be a lay person,

But what would be like your parting advice you think?

I would say the most important thing would be to,

You know,

Try to meet traditional,

You know,

Like Buddhist people somehow,

Even if it's online,

Like,

You know,

Instead of connecting to like a Western group,

Which you might feel a little bit more comfortable with,

You know,

Challenge yourself a little bit,

Feel uncomfortable,

You know,

Like,

Challenge yourself to put yourself in this awkward position,

And reach out to like traditional like Chinese,

Korean,

Taiwanese,

Thai,

Sri Lankan,

You know,

Burmese,

Reach,

Reach out to these people online,

They love to talk to Westerners anyway.

So like,

You're gonna find a good reception and get to know them and how they live their daily lives,

You know.

And that way,

You'll get a,

You know,

A better understanding than like,

Book Buddhism or Google Buddhism,

Or,

You know,

I don't know,

Like workshop,

Online retreat Buddhism,

Like those things,

You know,

They're not accurate.

They're like taking up a very narrow portion of the Dharma of Buddhism.

And,

You know,

Calling it that,

You know,

It's not a fair representation of what it actually is.

But when you meet people who,

For many generations,

Their family have been Buddhist,

You actually get to see like,

Wow,

This is how you live the Dharma life.

And maybe that will be,

You know,

Sufficient for you.

Maybe that's what you're looking for.

Maybe you're really just looking to be part of a Buddhist community and live the Dharma in everyday life.

And because you don't see that,

You're thinking the only way I can get it is by becoming a monk.

You don't have to,

You know,

That's not the only way.

So I'd really suggest that try to connect with traditional Buddhists.

And,

You know,

Just be their friends,

Try to become their friends.

And I think that will really help you understand what real Buddhism is instead of academic Buddhism,

Because academic Buddhism is not real Buddhism.

Right.

You know,

Just like academic anything is not the real,

Is that the reality of it?

Yeah,

I think that's a good point too.

The,

You know,

If you,

If you can do it online,

You know,

That's fine.

Because as we mentioned,

Like you may not even have something around you,

But once they got a vaca- I always mentioned this,

You got a vacation or something like that.

We'll see if you can't,

We'll also we're in a pandemic right now,

It's very challenging to be,

You know,

In person in a lot of these places,

But yeah,

See if you can actually rearrange your vacation towards maybe a retreat or something.

Yeah,

That'll be short.

Maybe it's just like a glimpse of that experience,

But maybe that's going to be something that you just can't get,

But could use that to reinforce everything else.

And,

And I'd like to hear your opinion on this as well.

I talk about it often is,

You know,

Superstition and everything else in Buddhism where you ceremonies and look very unusual.

And at least even what I found in many,

Many years ago,

Like,

Well,

That's just cultural or that's,

I don't believe in that.

Right.

And I,

When you start to actually learn the,

I would say the deep meanings behind them,

You're like,

Wow,

That's actually a really interesting way to understand and practice Buddhism.

Yes.

You're going to get these,

These,

These tinges,

You know,

Of cultural aspects to it makes perfect sense,

But it's a,

I think you're getting two things from it,

Understanding of another culture,

Which is almost good,

Always good.

Right.

But also another way to understand Buddhism,

And maybe you can have your viewpoint to it as well,

But there's,

This is a religion and we have a lot of different things here.

The Buddha had a lot of super normal powers and everything else.

And so what you know,

A lot of Westerners like,

Well,

Wait a minute,

But that's part of it.

And so I think when you start shutting yourself down from that,

You're,

You're missing out when you're engaging with traditional Buddhism,

You know,

These traditional Buddhist temples,

You're missing out because you're trying to now interject your Western and viewpoints of what religion is,

What,

You know,

What is right.

It was not right.

You know,

I think if we went back into maybe 200 years,

Like,

How are you talking to a glass thing in front of you,

Right?

To somebody thousands of miles away or hundreds of miles away,

Right.

You know,

Or flying around like this would be all super normal and superstitious to them.

Right.

We'd probably be arrested or something.

So it's very unusual.

So I think we have to really keep our expectations in check,

But open our hearts and our minds,

You know,

To like,

What's going on.

It's,

It's been around for 2,

600 years for a reason,

You know,

Developed and refined and open,

Open yourselves up when you go to,

You know,

To these temples.

And don't be so good.

Even as,

Because when you're in your own culture,

You don't see the own superstitious or metaphysical things that are happening.

So even us as Americans,

You know,

You go to a game and what do you do?

You stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well,

That's just like a fabric with colors on it.

You know,

What you're doing there is some sort of kind of like devotional practice,

Right?

You're putting your right hand over your heart.

I pledge allegiance to the flag,

Right?

Kind of like pay homage to the Buddha.

Yeah.

You know,

If someone from outside of this culture,

Like,

Well,

How weird,

Why would everyone stop what they're doing?

And,

You know,

Worship like this flag that's in the air,

But it means something to you,

Right?

You're recognizing the value of what America means.

Right.

So when you see a Buddha statue is like the same thing,

The value of the enlightened ones,

You know,

And then we go to,

We go to cemeteries and we put flowers.

No one's going to get those flowers.

Those flowers are just going to,

You know,

Like the person's out there,

They're dead.

Why do we do it?

Right.

That's also a metaphysical,

You know,

Superstitious practice that even very secular American people do.

But since it's within our own culture,

We kind of don't see it that way.

Right.

Right.

So,

But when we see another culture,

It's clear to us,

Right?

Oh,

Wow,

That's a superstitious thing.

That's a trivial thing.

So we kind of have to recognize that even within our own culture,

There's all these kinds of things that are,

You know,

Symbolic,

Symbolic gestures that we do.

And we shouldn't be turned off by them just because they're not ours,

You know,

Everyone in the world uses symbolism and we just kind of have to,

You know,

Understand that and be okay with it.

And yeah,

So that's just something,

You know,

You have to,

You have to get in touch with.

And since you mentioned about the flag,

So we were both in the military,

Different branches,

But I remember I was in a movie theater on the base.

And before the movie started,

The American flag came on,

Everybody stood up and we basically did,

You know,

The pledge of allegiance right there.

I'm like,

What's going on?

And you really think about it,

You're inside these different cultures and you just got used to that,

You know,

As you were inside our culture.

So even inside our culture,

When you go into these different environments,

Like the military,

It's a different experience and you get accustomed to that.

So what,

What you and me may be aware of when we were in the military,

Maybe a different experience than other people have as well too.

I think the same goes for Buddhism.

So it's yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Keep your mind open.

And as you gain more wisdom and understanding,

You talk with monastics,

You,

You learn things.

I think it becomes a much more rich and rewarding experience for a lay person.

And if you do want to come on monastic,

Absolutely possible,

Right?

You've shown it.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

But I think,

I think we're,

We're basically 10 people pump the brakes,

Pump the brakes,

You know,

Get involved and understand things.

And if you really want to do that,

I don't think either one of us say no to that.

I mean,

That's,

That's absolutely wonderful,

But make sure you understand what you're getting into,

But there's,

There's a whole life,

You know,

That you can actually have as a,

As a lay person.

You know,

I would say,

You know,

Treat it like if you're going to get married or you're buying a house,

Right?

Right.

It's a big commitment.

Think about like,

You just wouldn't just marry anyone,

Hopefully,

Right.

Or you just wouldn't just get any house.

Like you'd,

You'd,

You'd get to know the person,

You get to know the property,

You know,

You do,

You check all the benefits and,

And,

And all the,

And all the possible like things that are not going to be good too.

So you have to do thorough research,

Take your time,

You know,

People,

Takes people years sometimes to get married,

To buy a house might take years too.

So,

You know,

Kind of apply your normal common sense also to Buddhism,

Right?

Don't suspend your common sense just because you want to,

You know,

Take this path all the way.

No,

Use your normal common sense to,

You know,

Evaluate what's happening in Buddhism.

And I think that's very important because sometimes when it comes to religion,

We kind of give it a pass and we make exceptions and like,

Well,

This is different because it's religion.

Like,

No,

No,

No,

You should always do your research.

You should always investigate,

Take your time.

There's a sutta called the Pali Sutta and the Buddha even tells the layperson,

I don't think you should convert,

You know,

I don't think that's a good idea for you.

So there's occasions where the Buddha even tells people who are willing,

They wanted to become Buddhist,

Hey,

Slow down,

You know,

And sometimes he puts them on probation for six months before he lets them become Buddhist.

So,

You know,

If this was the advice of the Buddha,

You should probably listen to it.

You don't take it slow,

Take your time and really think about it.

Yeah.

And what was that sutta where I can't remember who it was,

But basically it's a very prominent person inside this community or village.

It's like,

I want to be,

You know,

Become a monk,

You know,

Bhikhu.

He's like,

No,

You know,

You are so prominent inside your community.

I don't want you to become like,

You probably didn't say exactly those words,

But you know,

You're exactly right.

It's like,

So he didn't really take in everybody.

And he was really mindful of those who should come in.

There's other ones.

He's like,

Why are you waiting?

You know,

So like,

If you're ready to commit,

You know,

Then you're ready to commit,

But it's,

It's really going to be,

I kind of liked how you put it like about marriage.

When you speak to the monastic at the temple,

You're like,

I want to be just like,

Almost like you did.

So it's like,

You're getting married.

You can talk to the pastor or priest.

They're like,

You want to get married.

It's marriage counseling.

Right.

So it's basically counseling.

Are you ready?

Just like you've been doing for a year with other people,

Do you really want to become an asset?

Here was this about and getting prepared for that.

And maybe they are ready for marriage to become a monastic,

You know,

Or,

Or not in either way is the right answer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Thank you so much for joining me.

And if anybody has any questions,

You know,

For either me or Bonzi,

You know,

Please leave it in the comments below.

We'd be happy to answer it.

So I think we covered a lot of topics,

You know,

Today,

But I'm sure there's going to be some other questions,

You know,

Coming up and Bonzi he's lived a life he's one from layperson to monastics that we can definitely ask him.

All right.

Thank you very much,

Bonzi.

We appreciate it.

Yeah,

No worries.

Right.

Good night,

Everybody.